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Moncada hopes to stay at 2b

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2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I agree. The day Madrigal gets called up, he is the smartest baseball player on the team.

I couldn't care less if Madrigal is hitting 5-9 HRs per year if he's hitting 30+ 2B and leading the league in 3B. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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1 minute ago, bmags said:

Nicky, Davidson, Palka (realistically, though I like him)

Got it. For whatever reason I thought you were talking about Madrigal, Moncada, Yolmer, etc. and I was not on board 

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3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I couldn't care less if Madrigal is hitting 5-9 HRs per year if he's hitting 30+ 2B and leading the league in 3B. 

Yolmer Sanchez hit 8 HR, 34 2b, and was tied for 2nd in the league in 3b. 

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5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yolmer Sanchez hit 8 HR, 34 2b, and was tied for 2nd in the league in 3b. 

Yeah, but he hit .242 and got on base at a .306 clip.  If he hit .310+ like I think Madrigal will, those numbers would be great. 

Sanchez had 49 walks. If Madrigal could hit .310+ with 40-50 walks and XBH numbers similar to Sanchez that is damn near his ceiling. I don't think that is out of the question. 
EDIT: Thanks to bmags for the 124 K stat as well. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yolmer Sanchez hit 8 HR, 34 2b, and was tied for 2nd in the league in 3b. 

With a .242 average and 124 ks.

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Talking about Madrigal and walking... My gut feeling is that if you put Nick in front of Eloy, and Eloy is pushing triple crown numbers behind him like we all hope... his walks would go up.  I really believe with his baseball IQ he would get that getting on base in front of Eloy would matter most, and he would do it.

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All I'm getting out of this thread is reaffirmation for my stance that player comps are terrible and obscure more than they clarify.

Every low power, below 6ft, multi positional infielder on this forum for last 3 years is Yolmer sanchez. 

Uber athletic powerful high school bat? Courtney Hawkins.

High power, high ks, poor positional defense? Adam Dunn.

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16 hours ago, oldsox said:

Maybe Moncada should lose a few pounds.  Looks pretty chunky.

Lol? Seriously?  Chunky?  The guy is a physical specimen.  

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8 minutes ago, bmags said:

All I'm getting out of this thread is reaffirmation for my stance that player comps are terrible and obscure more than they clarify.

Every low power, below 6ft, multi positional infielder on this forum for last 3 years is Yolmer sanchez. 

Uber athletic powerful high school bat? Courtney Hawkins.

High power, high ks, poor positional defense? Adam Dunn.

Co-signed

Sox Fans.

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20 minutes ago, bmags said:

All I'm getting out of this thread is reaffirmation for my stance that player comps are terrible and obscure more than they clarify.

Every low power, below 6ft, multi positional infielder on this forum for last 3 years is Yolmer sanchez. 

Uber athletic powerful high school bat? Courtney Hawkins.

High power, high ks, poor positional defense? Adam Dunn.

Until this FO proves that they can identify their ass from a hole in the ground, people will assume the worst case scenario. Yet I caught a ton of flak for saying the same about Trubisky in the NFL Thread. Hmmm. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Until this FO proves that they can identify their ass from a hole in the ground, people will assume the worst case scenario. Yet I caught a ton of flak for saying the same about Trubisky in the NFL Thread. Hmmm. 

It's amazing that you read what I wrote and thought it validated your trubisky opinions.

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9 minutes ago, bmags said:

It's amazing that you read what I wrote and thought it validated your trubisky opinions.

I didn't think that. Actually quite the opposite, and that those who make that comparison to the worst case scenario should be roasted accordingly, just like I got roasted in the NFL thread. All I was saying is that I don't blame people for making that assumption until the corresponding FO proves their competence in terms of scouting/player evaluation. But I do agree that it is ridiculous. In the NFL thread I said I knew it was ridiculous and I didn't care.  

I like sarcasm and was being a smart ass in that post. It was implied. Sorry if it wasn't clear.  I will change it to Green text if we still use that for sarcasm. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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35 minutes ago, bmags said:

With a .242 average and 124 ks.

And Madrigal hit 40% fewer extra base hits than that pace by Sanchez. If you turned those strikeouts into normal contact at a reasonable rate, that would push Madrigal up to a .280 average or so and a low .700s OPS. That’s a decent big league player, but it already requires saying “assume a 40% increase in Madrigals power numbers”.

he may very well get there but we need to stop doing the White Sox thing and saying he’ll be the starting 2b in 2020 and we need to clear Moncada out until we actually see some semblance of that happen. So let’s give him the time to do it before we race him up as the next savior.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

And Madrigal hit 40% fewer extra base hits than that pace by Sanchez. If you turned those strikeouts into normal contact at a reasonable rate, that would push Madrigal up to a .280 average or so and a low .700s OPS. That’s a decent big league player, but it already requires saying “assume a 40% increase in Madrigals power numbers”.

he may very well get there but we need to stop doing the White Sox thing and saying he’ll be the starting 2b in 2020 and we need to clear Moncada out until we actually see some semblance of that happen. So let’s give him the time to do it before we race him up as the next savior.

The fun part is here. 

Carlos Sanchez at age 21: .241/.293/.296/.589 in 479 PAs that generated 20 2B, 2 3B, and 0 HR at AAA.

This year in a partial season, Nick put up .303/.353/.374/.701 in his first season in pro ball.  He also generated 7 doubles in 173 PAs, or almost exactly on a 20 double pace if given the same amount of PAs as Yolmer at AAA.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

And Madrigal hit 40% fewer extra base hits than that pace by Sanchez. If you turned those strikeouts into normal contact at a reasonable rate, that would push Madrigal up to a .280 average or so and a low .700s OPS. That’s a decent big league player, but it already requires saying “assume a 40% increase in Madrigals power numbers”.

he may very well get there but we need to stop doing the White Sox thing and saying he’ll be the starting 2b in 2020 and we need to clear Moncada out until we actually see some semblance of that happen. So let’s give him the time to do it before we race him up as the next savior.

I am not advocating moving any player in advance of anyone. Jimenez, madrigal, anyone.

But I am against this idea that specifically comes up about Madrigal that the player he is today is his ceiling just carried over to MLB stats. He needs to walk more, he needs to hit for more power. He needs to translate his college SB numbers to the pros.

The reason people think he will be quick to pros isn't because he is a finished product, it's because he has a number of major league level skills. If he doesn't progress anything else of his, he will likely be bad to average. But the starting package is very promising, I don't think he'll ever hit for 25 home runs, but every marginal growth in power for him means so much more than for the same growth on a related player. His other skills are that strong.

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18 hours ago, Flash said:

The Milwaukee Brewers lost 90 games in 2016. They brought in Craig Counsell part way into the season as manager. They made a few moves to position to compete and improved nicely in 2017. Most casual fans would be hard pressed to name more than one or two members of their starting pitching rotation at end of 2017. All they did to start 2018 was trade for Yelich (lock for MVP) and sign Cain as FA (top 5 MVP) while improving their BP every chance they got. At deadline they trade for Moustakas and Schoop. Still doubt casual fans can name more than 3 starters but after today, they are the odds on favorite to take NL and I wouldn't bet against them for the whole enchilada. My point....you need a plan and a willingness to execute it.

They also got some luck with Aguilar (waiver claim ) and Thames. Or is that just good scouting ? Sox in a rebuild can't seem to find hidden gems as well as other teams.

I haven't done a deep dive on this subject but guys like Muncy and Taylor with the Dodgers and Mikolas with the Cards  and has to be some  Oakland A's in there. They reamed the Brewers in the Khris Davis trade a few years ago. Scooter Gennett was a another waiver claim for the Reds also from the Brewers. Joey Wendle and Mallex Smith are parts of the revolving door of players that came to Tampa Bay in trades.

 

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4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Jose Altuve didn't even make it to 10 HRs until his 5th season in the bigs.

And he's so obviously roided out of his mind that it's making Placido Polanco have flashbacks. Altuve is such an outlier that I wouldn't compare anybody to him. 

 

@Eminor3rd hit the nail on the head. It's foolish to worry about positions this early. I will say Moncada has an infinitely higher ceiling than Madrigal, but it's going to be much tougher to reach it. 

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1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

And he's so obviously roided out of his mind that it's making Placido Polanco have flashbacks. Altuve is such an outlier that I wouldn't compare anybody to him. 

 

@Eminor3rd hit the nail on the head. It's foolish to worry about positions this early. I will say Moncada has an infinitely higher ceiling than Madrigal, but it's going to be much tougher to reach it. 

Yeah if you are going to straight up comp the two, Madrigal has a much higher floor, and a much lower ceiling.  Moncada has a chance to be a superstar, but a chance to end up in an Avi Garcia type of career.  Madrigal has a chance to be a star, but is almost certain to be a 10 year starter, as he had 3 major league ready tools on draft day.

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Madrigal is going to be compared to a lot of little guys. Altuve is obviously an outlier, and getting there is crazy to expect. Maybe he hits like Adam Eaton, another really little guy. One thing for sure is it is extremely likely he is an outlier as well because if the Sox didn't pick him with the 4th pick of the draft, someone would have selected him soon after.

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5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yeah if you are going to straight up comp the two, Madrigal has a much higher floor, and a much lower ceiling.  Moncada has a chance to be a superstar, but a chance to end up in an Avi Garcia type of career.  Madrigal has a chance to be a star, but is almost certain to be a 10 year starter, as he had 3 major league ready tools on draft day.

Moncada's already better than Garcia will ever be, IMO. He's a much better fielder and the walks alone make him a better hitter.

 

Madrigal isn't almost certain to be anything. I can't believe people that have been following baseball for years actually think that. We've seen countless prospects fail. Remember Jeremy Reed? He was the most "can't miss" prospect I've ever seen and he flopped super hard. Beckham is another. 

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3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Madrigal is going to be compared to a lot of little guys. Altuve is obviously an outlier, and getting there is crazy to expect. Maybe he hits like Adam Eaton, another really little guy. One thing for sure is it is extremely likely he is an outlier as well because if the Sox didn't pick him with the 4th pick of the draft, someone would have selected him soon after.

This is gonna piss @southsider2k5 off, but he's got David Eckstein written all over him, which isn't the worst thing. 

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2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Moncada's already better than Garcia will ever be, IMO. He's a much better fielder and the walks alone make him a better hitter.

 

Madrigal isn't almost certain to be anything. I can't believe people that have been following baseball for years actually think that. We've seen countless prospects fail. Remember Jeremy Reed? He was the most "can't miss" prospect I've ever seen and he flopped super hard. Beckham is another. 

Jeremy Reed had one tool, and wasn't nearly as universally beloved as Madrigal.  He was never even a Top 100 guy.

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6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Jeremy Reed had one tool, and wasn't nearly as universally beloved as Madrigal.  He was never even a Top 100 guy.

A second round draft pick that hit .400 in his 2nd pro year, at AA, with a 1.000 OPS was never a top 100 prospect? 

I also remember BA naming him the best pure hitter in college his last year, but I could be wrong. 

Edited by TaylorStSox

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6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Jeremy Reed had one tool, and wasn't nearly as universally beloved as Madrigal.  He was never even a Top 100 guy.

That's not even kinda true. 

Pre 2004 he was #25 on the BA Prospect List. 

Pre 2005 he was #33 on the BA Prospect List. 

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