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So is no one falling on the sword for 2018?

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52 minutes ago, greg775 said:

This is why tanking/rebuilding slays me. I prefer the old way that got us a title in 2005. Being decent to good most years then having everything go right one year. The Cubs total rebuild has resulted in one WS title. Great. As a fan I would deem it a successful season making the playoffs as well. BUT no doubt the Cubs wanted more than one WS title with the rebuild. Are they gonna get more? Probably not. And if they don't, they got one WS title doing it the tank/rebuild way and we got one in 05 doing it the other way. This tank/rebuild stuff is not a guaranteed formula for success folks. I'm personally looking forward to Eloy raking with Moncada, Tim, Abreu, Avi, Palka and Davidson. Me likey that.

Did we get four consecutive playoff appearances?  Back-to-back, even?

If you count individually, you have to go back to 1993 to get there.   That's a quarter of a century to duplicate the Cubs' success in just this decade.

This is the reason why a small (but growing) group of Sox fans talk about the team relocating at some undefined point in the future.

 

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57 minutes ago, greg775 said:

This is why tanking/rebuilding slays me. I prefer the old way that got us a title in 2005. Being decent to good most years then having everything go right one year. The Cubs total rebuild has resulted in one WS title. Great. As a fan I would deem it a successful season making the playoffs as well. BUT no doubt the Cubs wanted more than one WS title with the rebuild. Are they gonna get more? Probably not. And if they don't, they got one WS title doing it the tank/rebuild way and we got one in 05 doing it the other way. This tank/rebuild stuff is not a guaranteed formula for success folks. I'm personally looking forward to Eloy raking with Moncada, Tim, Abreu, Avi, Palka and Davidson. Me likey that.

2005, you mean how Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee (traded for Scott Podsednik), Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed (Traded for Garcia), how those guys were all developed out of the strong, top-ranked White Sox system from 2000, which famously followed a "White Flag Trade" in the middle of a season and 2 years where the team's slogan was "The Kids Can Play" (several of those kids were key contributors on said world series roster)?

So basically you're all in favor of a rebuild and the greatest thing that a team can do is the "White Flag Trade" as that wound up still being key even if, down the line, it wound up contributing Cotts to that roster? Ok, great. Build the system, then you should have a 5-8 year period where the team is very good most years and can have everything go right one year.  

 

Yeah I know, banging head against a wall. The team he praised literally existed and was able to be good most years because of tanking, because of rebuilding, because of the White Flag Trade and because The Kids Can Play. He won't care, he won't pay attention, he'll repeat the exact same garbage in another thread, and I hate myself for replying.

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3 hours ago, whitesoxbrad said:

There is nothing wrong with our small but hungry fan base, this team has lost more games then any other team in all of Baseball in the past 6 years, don't blame the fans blame this  organization from TOP to BOTTOM.

If you need winning to be a fan, you aren't a fan.

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2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Did we get four consecutive playoff appearances?  Back-to-back, even?

If you count individually, you have to go back to 1993 to get there.   That's a quarter of a century to duplicate the Cubs' success in just this decade.

This is the reason why a small (but growing) group of Sox fans talk about the team relocating at some undefined point in the future.

 

I wouldn't mind them building a palace in the suburbs. Why does the park have to be at 35th and Shields? Sell the team to Mark Cuban and build a wondrous stadium out in a suburb in a spot where traffic can get in and out 'somewhat' efficiently. If not, build it downtown Chicago and make it the 8th wonder of the world type building.

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13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you need winning to be a fan, you aren't a fan.

You are the rare fan who rarely if ever blasts the front office or expresses displeasure of any kind. If your patience is rewarded with year after year of excellence you will have the last laugh on a lot of people who are angry now. The rest of us complainers will enjoy the winning years as well.

Edited by greg775
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2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

2005, you mean how Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee (traded for Scott Podsednik), Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed (Traded for Garcia), how those guys were all developed out of the strong, top-ranked White Sox system from 2000, which famously followed a "White Flag Trade" in the middle of a season and 2 years where the team's slogan was "The Kids Can Play" (several of those kids were key contributors on said world series roster)?

So basically you're all in favor of a rebuild and the greatest thing that a team can do is the "White Flag Trade" as that wound up still being key even if, down the line, it wound up contributing Cotts to that roster? Ok, great. Build the system, then you should have a 5-8 year period where the team is very good most years and can have everything go right one year.  

 

Yeah I know, banging head against a wall. The team he praised literally existed and was able to be good most years because of tanking, because of rebuilding, because of the White Flag Trade and because The Kids Can Play. He won't care, he won't pay attention, he'll repeat the exact same garbage in another thread, and I hate myself for replying.

Great post but I don't think we were exactly tanking in the true sense of tanking, which is what is going on now. Don't forget that team also had AJP who was huge; Iguchi, Uribe, Dye, Blum, Ozuna, Contreras, Marte and Hermanson. You didn't name some of the other guys.

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7 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Great post but I don't think we were exactly tanking in the true sense of tanking, which is what is going on now. Don't forget that team also had AJP who was huge; Iguchi, Uribe, Dye, Blum, Ozuna, Contreras, Marte and Hermanson. You didn't name some of the other guys.

As long as you can tell me that Paul Konerko was unimportant to that team and you hated him on that team, then you're fine. Paul Konerko was acquired by trading Mike Cameron, a more developed starting Center Fielder, to the Reds in exchange for a blocked 3b that the White Sox shifted to 1b. That set the team back a couple years, they had to start developing a player from scratch. Hell, that guy hit .234 with only 18 home runs in 2003, what a waste of time. So like you said, Paul Konerko is awful and you hated him on the White Sox, you think that acquiring him was a terrible decision and you wish the White Sox never did things like that. 

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3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you need winning to be a fan, you aren't a fan.

If you need winning to be a fan you aren't a fan, Wow what a stupid reply, sometimes silence is golden.

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6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

As long as you can tell me that Paul Konerko was unimportant to that team and you hated him on that team, then you're fine. Paul Konerko was acquired by trading Mike Cameron, a more developed starting Center Fielder, to the Reds in exchange for a blocked 3b that the White Sox shifted to 1b. That set the team back a couple years, they had to start developing a player from scratch. Hell, that guy hit .234 with only 18 home runs in 2003, what a waste of time. So like you said, Paul Konerko is awful and you hated him on the White Sox, you think that acquiring him was a terrible decision and you wish the White Sox never did things like that. 

Konerko set the team back a couple of years? He needed to be developed from scratch? 1999 was Paulies first season with the White Sox. He put up an .862 OPS, and had 3 similar seasons after that before his disastrous 2003 season. 

 

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5 hours ago, whitesoxbrad said:

If you need winning to be a fan you aren't a fan, Wow what a stupid reply, sometimes silence is golden.

Now you know how I feel reading repeated angry posts about a game. I really think some people build their egos around teams, and their insecurities come out and feelings get hurt when they lose that ego boost that they get from "winning ".  Instead of being entertainment it becomes a substitute for things of substance. 

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Konerko set the team back a couple of years? He needed to be developed from scratch? 1999 was Paulies first season with the White Sox. He put up an .862 OPS, and had 3 similar seasons after that before his disastrous 2003 season. 

 

And yes, he was a rebuilding move, but rebuilding is awful so we can't like him. That's Greg's clear point, rebuilding is awful so we must hate anything that came from rebuilding. That 2005 team can't have had anything to do with rebuilding, analytics, or anything else we don't like now, because they must be constantly held up to be perfect. 

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14 hours ago, greg775 said:

This is why tanking/rebuilding slays me. I prefer the old way that got us a title in 2005. Being decent to good most years then having everything go right one year. The Cubs total rebuild has resulted in one WS title. Great. As a fan I would deem it a successful season making the playoffs as well. BUT no doubt the Cubs wanted more than one WS title with the rebuild. Are they gonna get more? Probably not. And if they don't, they got one WS title doing it the tank/rebuild way and we got one in 05 doing it the other way. This tank/rebuild stuff is not a guaranteed formula for success folks. I'm personally looking forward to Eloy raking with Moncada, Tim, Abreu, Avi, Palka and Davidson. Me likey that.

Well, no one LIKES to have to rebuild. At some point, though, if you run your organization into the ground with unwise spending (whether on bad players or bad development processes), it becomes the quickest way back to relevance. Unfortunately, both organizations did that. 

The plan for both the cubs and the White Sox is to never have to do it again. They won’t be able to avoid a year or two of being “less competitive” here and there, but the disasterpiece rebuild is a desperation move that should be avoided if possible. But, like filing bankruptcy, it is a legitimately good option if you find yourself fucked. 

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So rebuilds happen and sometimes they are painful, but I still kinda think Steverson should be fired.

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3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

And yes, he was a rebuilding move, but rebuilding is awful so we can't like him. That's Greg's clear point, rebuilding is awful so we must hate anything that came from rebuilding. That 2005 team can't have had anything to do with rebuilding, analytics, or anything else we don't like now, because they must be constantly held up to be perfect. 

As you said to Greg in another thread, if you are going to claim something, you might want to look it up. Mike Cameron was a mid .600 OPS guy when the Sox traded him for Paulie, and Paulie paid immediate dividends. There were no growing pains for him. You mention 2003. That was his 5th season with the team. He already put up 4 seasons of over .840 OPS. 

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15 hours ago, greg775 said:

This is why tanking/rebuilding slays me. I prefer the old way that got us a title in 2005. Being decent to good most years then having everything go right one year. The Cubs total rebuild has resulted in one WS title. Great. As a fan I would deem it a successful season making the playoffs as well. BUT no doubt the Cubs wanted more than one WS title with the rebuild. Are they gonna get more? Probably not. And if they don't, they got one WS title doing it the tank/rebuild way and we got one in 05 doing it the other way. This tank/rebuild stuff is not a guaranteed formula for success folks. I'm personally looking forward to Eloy raking with Moncada, Tim, Abreu, Avi, Palka and Davidson. Me likey that.

I'd call 4 consecutive years in the playoffs and one WS championship pretty successful.

Also the Astros who went through a similar rebuild are in their 3rd playoff appearance in the last 4 years and have a shot at the WS again.

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12 hours ago, greg775 said:

I wouldn't mind them building a palace in the suburbs. Why does the park have to be at 35th and Shields? Sell the team to Mark Cuban and build a wondrous stadium out in a suburb in a spot where traffic can get in and out 'somewhat' efficiently. If not, build it downtown Chicago and make it the 8th wonder of the world type building.

As the Cubs have shown over the years, the location of the stadium and how many fans fill it every year doesn't correlate at all to how good the team that plays inside it is.

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On 10/16/2018 at 4:53 AM, Buehrle>Wood said:

Cubs fired a hitting coach then quickly hired a new one. It doesnt appear any changes are coming for the Sox, but there's still plenty of time I guess. Are you surprised? Do you care?

I'm not surprised at all.  I suppose I could have seen them making a move with their hitting coach, if they really thought it was necessary, but it has long seemed they believe in Sverson and I think they recognize shifting a hitting coach probably does nothing anyway.  I don't have any major concerns with this coaching staff.  They aren't the best in baseball, but they are far from the worst, and I do think that overall Renteria is a solid manager.  Whether he's the long term guy to take the franchise to the next level, I don't know, but I'll wait until the team has some actual talent before I make any harsh conclusions on Renteria's ability to take a team to the next level.  

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If I ran a team I would make the hitting coach into a traveling fellowship type deal. Each year a new guy comes in, gives different perspectives. The FO/manager/player would track overall progress to ensure nobody is getting completely revamped every year. If players (or specific player) love a guy you keep him on and STILL have a new person come in and have two hitting coaches.

 

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

As you said to Greg in another thread, if you are going to claim something, you might want to look it up. Mike Cameron was a mid .600 OPS guy when the Sox traded him for Paulie, and Paulie paid immediate dividends. There were no growing pains for him. You mention 2003. That was his 5th season with the team. He already put up 4 seasons of over .840 OPS. 

Fine, you're right. The 1999 White Sox were not a rebuilding year. Please explain this to me in more detail, because I can't figure out how that makes any sense at all. 

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On 10/16/2018 at 10:53 AM, Dick Allen said:

Anderson hit like he hit in 2017 when his friend's death was an excuse.

 

 

I take exception to this. Anderson's OPS was 9 points higher with his BABIP 40 points lower.

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55 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Fine, you're right. The 1999 White Sox were not a rebuilding year. Please explain this to me in more detail, because I can't figure out how that makes any sense at all. 

They traded a struggling young guy for a struggling young guy. Please explain to me this claim you made:

 

you mean how Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee (traded for Scott Podsednik), Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed (Traded for Garcia), how those guys were all developed out of the strong, top-ranked White Sox system from 2000,

 

Paul Konerko, developed by the White Sox out of the 2000 system?  He has 29 plate appearances for White Sox minor league teams, and they were in 2008 and 2013. Carlos Lee? Might want to check where he was in 2000. It wasn't the minor leagues. Jeremy Reed was developed out the top ranked 2000 system even though he wasn't drafted until 2002. Miguel Olivo's first season with the White Sox organization was 2001. 

 

 

Edited by Dick Allen

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17 hours ago, greg775 said:

This is why tanking/rebuilding slays me. I prefer the old way that got us a title in 2005. Being decent to good most years then having everything go right one year. The Cubs total rebuild has resulted in one WS title. Great. As a fan I would deem it a successful season making the playoffs as well. BUT no doubt the Cubs wanted more than one WS title with the rebuild. Are they gonna get more? Probably not. And if they don't, they got one WS title doing it the tank/rebuild way and we got one in 05 doing it the other way. This tank/rebuild stuff is not a guaranteed formula for success folks. I'm personally looking forward to Eloy raking with Moncada, Tim, Abreu, Avi, Palka and Davidson. Me likey that.

The two teams in this city have combined for two World Series titles in the last 202 combined seasons, yet you think the Cubs rebuild was poor because they only won one World Series?

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8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They traded a struggling young guy for a struggling young guy. Please explain to me this claim you made:

 

you mean how Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland, Paul Konerko, Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee (traded for Scott Podsednik), Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed (Traded for Garcia), how those guys were all developed out of the strong, top-ranked White Sox system from 2000,

 

Paul Konerko, developed by the White Sox out of the 2000 system?  He has 29 plate appearances for White Sox minor league teams, and they were in 2008 and 2013. Carlos Lee? Might want to check where he was in 2000. It wasn't the minor leagues. Jeremy Reed was developed out the top ranked 2000 system even though he wasn't drafted until 2002. Miguel Olivo's first season with the White Sox organization was 2001. 

 

 

They were absolutely rebuilding pieces. That's the point, Greg hates rebuilding and tanking, teams never should have done that, but somehow you should just be a successful good team like the 2000s white sox. So pieces like that, the guys we traded for and the guys we drafted with those picks, those are the guys he hates. These guys were guys traded for and given chances on a rebuilding team. That's how they built that team, and they were at least competitive for most of the 00's. 

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26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

They were absolutely rebuilding pieces. That's the point, Greg hates rebuilding and tanking, teams never should have done that, but somehow you should just be a successful good team like the 2000s white sox. So pieces like that, the guys we traded for and the guys we drafted with those picks, those are the guys he hates. These guys were guys traded for and given chances on a rebuilding team. That's how they built that team, and they were at least competitive for most of the 00's. 

You still misstated a lot there. 

The Brewers didn't have to get awful for a long time to start winning. If they win it all, it may make some teams thinking of the total tank in the future, reconsider.

 

And even in the era in which you are currently being misleading, they never had to be as awful as they have been now to get good again. They did tank after 1986, and even then, it wasn't as bad as now. The White Sox current problem is they have people in charge who couldn't recognize major league talent that was currently playing in the major leagues. Now those same people are supposed to be able to project minor leaguers into major leaguers. And if somehow they can do that, they are going to have to be successful at a task in which  they have failed for years. 

 

They are already getting a pass on 2019 because they players they have touted aren't nearly as ready as Rick Hahn's comments from last year would seem to indicate was planned.

 

Michael Kopech is throwing a lighter baseball 110 mph during the offseason. Awesome.!Who would possibly think he could blow out his elbow. 

Edited by Dick Allen

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6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You still misstated a lot there. 

The Brewers didn't have to get awful for a long time to start winning. If they win it all, it may make some teams thinking of the total tank in the future, reconsider.

 

And even in the era in which you are currently being misleading, they never had to be as awful as they have been now to get good again. They did tank after 1986, and even then, it wasn't as bad as now. The White Sox current problem is they have people in charge who couldn't recognize major league talent that was currently playing in the major leagues. Now those same people are supposed to be able to project minor leaguers into major leaguers. And if somehow they can do that, they are going to have to be successful at a task in which  they have failed for years. 

 

They are already getting a pass on 2019 because they players they have touted aren't nearly as ready as Rick Hahn's comments from last year would seem to indicate was planned.

The Brewers didn't start completely from scratch in part because they had Braun, but other than him they have entirely turned over their roster since their previous playoff team in 2011, and it took them 6 seasons of missing the playoffs before they were able to put together a run from the moment where they lost Fielder, Greinke, etc. They didn't get awful, but it sure took them a long time. 

I don't disagree with you that the White Sox put themselves into a far worse position than those teams thanks to their foolish, idiotic, dumb moves between 2013 and 2016 that set the franchise back by half a decade. 

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