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So is no one falling on the sword for 2018?

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Cubs fired a hitting coach then quickly hired a new one. It doesnt appear any changes are coming for the Sox, but there's still plenty of time I guess. Are you surprised? Do you care?

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16 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Cubs fired a hitting coach then quickly hired a new one. It doesnt appear any changes are coming for the Sox, but there's still plenty of time I guess. Are you surprised? Do you care?

The cubs are a great team but are looking panicky. The White Sox planned to be bad in 2018, the cubs didn't plan on losing the division title.

So no, I don't care. Though if upgrades are available I hope the Sox aren't loyal to a fault and acquire them. The cubs hired a new hitting coach and pitching coach after 2017 and look what good it did them.

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2 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Cubs fired a hitting coach then quickly hired a new one. It doesnt appear any changes are coming for the Sox, but there's still plenty of time I guess. Are you surprised? Do you care?

A team that everyone knew was going to suck, did indeed suck.  Is that earthshattering?

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If there is one thing this year that worries me a ton...it's the minor league injuries (esp. if you count Kopech). The big league roster had roughly normal health, but the minor leagues absolutely were shredded this year. If that's a fluke then ok....but if that rate of injuries continues for the next 1-2 years it will totally demolish all of the talent this org thought they had acquired. If there's any place that I actually might think of making changes, it's the strength and conditioning and training staff for the minor leagues.

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3 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Cubs fired a hitting coach then quickly hired a new one. It doesnt appear any changes are coming for the Sox, but there's still plenty of time I guess. Are you surprised? Do you care?

Cubs hired Theo's former "special assistant to the GM with emphasis on player development" that's been working for a last place team.  Not a ringing endorsement IMO...

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34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If there is one thing this year that worries me a ton...it's the minor league injuries (esp. if you count Kopech). The big league roster had roughly normal health, but the minor leagues absolutely were shredded this year. If that's a fluke then ok....but if that rate of injuries continues for the next 1-2 years it will totally demolish all of the talent this org thought they had acquired. If there's any place that I actually might think of making changes, it's the strength and conditioning and training staff for the minor leagues.

Sort of unrelated I think they need to alter the minor league nutrition plans too. Before Luis Robert got here, he had a remarkably healthy diet. Then he got to Kannapolis and found out that all players were able to eat was Domino's pizza, McDonald's, or greasy ballpark food. Now from his social media it appears that he still primarily eats that stuff. 

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Cubs, the with most talent the organization has ever had at one time, underperform after their second consecutive early playoff exit. 

White Sox, in the second year of a full-scale, scorched-earth rebuild, lose 100 games like everyone expected. 

These things are not similar. 

Edited by Eminor3rd

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They aren't similar, but I do think you have to look at things and ask, is there progress being made? Anderson has made progress defensively. A couple of others have as well. The question I have is offensively. What really do the White Sox have to hang their hat on? Who is improving? This is a time they need their young guys to develop. Maybe they can't get any better, but Moncada struggled. Anderson hit like he hit in 2017 when his friend's death was an excuse. Davidson added walks, but everything else...the same, with a little less power. Avi, hurt and a little backwards. Narvaez and Smith hit, but not really difference makers and is it something that will last? Catchers seem to go up and down offensively more than most. Engel, whatever. Delmonico, backwards. Palka was a nice discovery, but a ton of strikeouts, and no on base seems like a pretty good candidate to regress. Yolmer most likely is what he is. I won't pin that on a coach. 

I do think the hitting instruction needs to be dealt with.  I would like to see if they could hire someone who can get a couple of these guys to take off. It seems most are stuck in mud.

 

 

Edited by Dick Allen

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4 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Cubs fired a hitting coach then quickly hired a new one. It doesnt appear any changes are coming for the Sox, but there's still plenty of time I guess. Are you surprised? Do you care?

The Sox have lost more games in the last six years than any other team in baseball.  The last two years the losses were "expected" due to this rebuild business.  However, the four years preceding these last two were not intended to be losing affairs, yet they were, and quite badly.  The Sox have three coaches in Cooper, McEwing, and Boston who have presided over all six years, including the four that forced the rebuild decision upon the organization.  And you have Steverson who has been in on the last four years of action, including his first two years when the team was expected to contend. 

So the question is, how long of a leash do these fellas get with this team?  Do they get life long passes courtesy of the owner's infamous loyalty program, similar to what the chaps in the front office enjoy?  Or would it be better for the development of these new, young players arriving at the Major League level to receive a new and fresh perspective from different coaches. 

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40 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

The Sox have lost more games in the last six years than any other team in baseball.  The last two years the losses were "expected" due to this rebuild business.  However, the four years preceding these last two were not intended to be losing affairs, yet they were, and quite badly.  The Sox have three coaches in Cooper, McEwing, and Boston who have presided over all six years, including the four that forced the rebuild decision upon the organization.  And you have Steverson who has been in on the last four years of action, including his first two years when the team was expected to contend. 

So the question is, how long of a leash do these fellas get with this team?  Do they get life long passes courtesy of the owner's infamous loyalty program, similar to what the chaps in the front office enjoy?  Or would it be better for the development of these new, young players arriving at the Major League level to receive a new and fresh perspective from different coaches. 

While I personally would love for a completely new front office on the baseball side of things as well as a new field manager and coaching staff, that is simply not going to happen at this time.

In fairness to all concerned you have to give the people in charge of the rebuild an opportunity to succeed or fail under the new guidelines / circumstances. There simply hasn't been enough time to see one way or the other which way this is going.

Injuries haven't helped, numerous injuries at both the major and minor league level are complicating the situation.

Simply put, more time is needed...as hard as that is to stomach.

Now if they are still looking like goofy buffoons in 2020, unable or unwilling to master the basic fundamentals of the game, unable to attract any quality free agents to help move things along....then people must be unceremoniously fired. Period. End of story.

The other joker in this entire situation is of course who may be owning the team in the next few years. New ownership immediately changes all the dynamics and equations.

Edited by Lip Man 1

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54 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They aren't similar, but I do think you have to look at things and ask, is there progress being made? Anderson has made progress defensively. A couple of others have as well. The question I have is offensively. What really do the White Sox have to hang their hat on? Who is improving? This is a time they need their young guys to develop. Maybe they can't get any better, but Moncada struggled. Anderson hit like he hit in 2017 when his friend's death was an excuse. Davidson added walks, but everything else...the same, with a little less power. Avi, hurt and a little backwards. Narvaez and Smith hit, but not really difference makers and is it something that will last? Catchers seem to go up and down offensively more than most. Engel, whatever. Delmonico, backwards. Palka was a nice discovery, but a ton of strikeouts, and no on base seems like a pretty good candidate to regress. Yolmer most likely is what he is. I won't pin that on a coach. 

I do think the hitting instruction needs to be dealt with.  I would like to see if they could hire someone who can get a couple of these guys to take off. It seems most are stuck in mud.

 

 

Absolutely agree. The record may be bad but we need to see individual improvement but realizing what the coaches have to work with.   

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I can't stand Renteria or Steverson, but the Manager really doesn't matter right now. When it is time to win games, it will matter, and at that point I'd like to see RR get whacked. Steverson should probably go, but he hasn't been whacked yet so I guess he's not going anywhere. I'm fine with Coop sticking around. 

There is still hope for Giolito and Covey because John Danks had a 5.50 ERA in his first full season(2007) and responded in 2008 by being the ace of the staff. Would I like a better option than Covey? Sure. I do think Giolito should get at least until the ASB next season to show that he can pitch in the bigs. Given how bad they're likely to be next year(probably 88-95 losses) I think it doesn't really hurt to let Giolito try to figure it out next year. Even though the stuff he had as a top prospect isn't there, the stuff he showed in August was 100% just fine to get MLB hitters out. Does he suck right now? Yeah. Nobody can deny that. With pitchers sometimes the light just comes on and then they take off. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

They aren't similar, but I do think you have to look at things and ask, is there progress being made? Anderson has made progress defensively. A couple of others have as well. The question I have is offensively. What really do the White Sox have to hang their hat on? Who is improving? This is a time they need their young guys to develop. Maybe they can't get any better, but Moncada struggled. Anderson hit like he hit in 2017 when his friend's death was an excuse. Davidson added walks, but everything else...the same, with a little less power. Avi, hurt and a little backwards. Narvaez and Smith hit, but not really difference makers and is it something that will last? Catchers seem to go up and down offensively more than most. Engel, whatever. Delmonico, backwards. Palka was a nice discovery, but a ton of strikeouts, and no on base seems like a pretty good candidate to regress. Yolmer most likely is what he is. I won't pin that on a coach. 

I do think the hitting instruction needs to be dealt with.  I would like to see if they could hire someone who can get a couple of these guys to take off. It seems most are stuck in mud.

 

 

I would agree with all of that. I just think it’s tough for us to know how much is related to coaching and how much is simply that the players need time to adjust. I would not be opposed to changing any of our coaches if it was because the FO legitimately believes the players need different instruction, but I would disappointed if they fired anyone just so that the fan base could see some heads roll. 

Edited by Eminor3rd

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1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

I would agree with all of that. I just think it’s tough for us to know how much is related to coaching and how much is simply that the players need time to adjust. I would not be opposed to changing any of our coaches if it was because the FO legitimately believes the players need different instruction, but I would disappointed if they fired anyone just so that the fan base could see some heads roll. 

A couple of those guys there are reasonable excuses for - Garcia and Delmonico went backwards in no small part because they couldn't stay healthy (training staff again?). We also have the excuses for Moncada and Anderson that they were rushed to the big leagues and so they're going to still need some time to struggle. Basically, next year, we should see some improvement from those guys...and then we can say "or else". 

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9 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Cubs fired a hitting coach then quickly hired a new one. It doesnt appear any changes are coming for the Sox, but there's still plenty of time I guess. Are you surprised? Do you care?

Surprised that none of the Sox coaches quit their jobs?  Not at all, didn't expect any of them to.

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I can't disagree with the analysis of the hitting above, but what about the pitching coach?  How have Giolito, Lopez and Rodon progressed?  Only Lopez really made progress (in contrast, only Moncada is really a top prospect on the hitting side).  The bullpen isn't much better, with Fry having a nice year and that's about it.  Overall, guys like Leury, Davidson, Palka, Yolmer could make the back end of a contender's 25 person roster.  Who on the pitching side can say that beyond Lopez, Rodon (who is a 4/5 instead of the 1/2) and Fry?  

Yes, the win/loss total  isn't really important in a vacuum, but the lack of development is; and the lack of development contributed to the win/loss total.  Renteria needs to be replaced once the team is ready to win, but he's not really at the top of the list. And firing him would give the impression that the FO was displeased with the season, and that is a message that they do not want to send. Because it implies accountability and a timetable, and they seem to act above all that.  Similarly, replacing the hitting coach and/or pitching coach will send the message that the FO isn't pleased.
In the long run, that hurts the franchise...serial losing is bad enough on attendance and interest, but the people in charge acting like they aren't bothered by it and have an indefinite timeframe with no accountability is corrosive and exacerbates the problems.

Edited by GreenSox

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29 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

I can't disagree with the analysis of the hitting above, but what about the pitching coach?  How have Giolito, Lopez and Rodon progressed?  Only Lopez really made progress (in contrast, only Moncada is really a top prospect on the hitting side).  The bullpen isn't much better, with Fry having a nice year and that's about it.  Overall, guys like Leury, Davidson, Palka, Yolmer could make the back end of a contender's 25 person roster.  Who on the pitching side can say that beyond Lopez, Rodon (who is a 4/5 instead of the 1/2) and Fry?  

Yes, the win/loss total  isn't really important in a vacuum, but the lack of development is; and the lack of development contributed to the win/loss total.  Renteria needs to be replaced once the team is ready to win, but he's not really at the top of the list. And firing him would give the impression that the FO was displeased with the season, and that is a message that they do not want to send. Because it implies accountability and a timetable, and they seem to act above all that.  Similarly, replacing the hitting coach and/or pitching coach will send the message that the FO isn't pleased.
In the long run, that hurts the franchise...serial losing is bad enough on attendance and interest, but the people in charge acting like they aren't bothered by it and have an indefinite timeframe with no accountability is corrosive and exacerbates the problems.

^ This is exactly why rebuilding was always going to be a dicey proposition with our fan base.  Sox fans just don't buy in if it doesn't involve instant gratification.

This is a rebuild.  They are supposed to be losing now.  Everyone in the organization knows this.  I don't know why some people outside don't get this, but this is our fan base. 

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3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

^ This is exactly why rebuilding was always going to be a dicey proposition with our fan base.  Sox fans just don't buy in if it doesn't involve instant gratification.

 This is a rebuild.  They are supposed to be losing now.  Everyone in the organization knows this.  I don't know why some people outside don't get this, but this is our fan base. 

If Eloy as great as we all anticipate, all will be well as the team rebuilds. Sox fans will rejoice and should rejoice. In fact, if Eloy dominates at the MLB level, I'd reward Hahn at that point with an extension. He could be that big a star. If he's blah for some reason, bye bye Ricky.

Frankly and I know I'll be buried for this negative comment, all that losing so far has given us Madrigal and Burger? Me no likey. Let's see who we get with No. 3 next year's draft. It better be either a Sale-like can't miss pitcher or another Eloy type hitter not a Maddy or Burger. A lot of you wanted a very very high pick. You got it. They better pick a star, baby.

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1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

^ This is exactly why rebuilding was always going to be a dicey proposition with our fan base.  Sox fans just don't buy in if it doesn't involve instant gratification.

This is a rebuild.  They are supposed to be losing now.  Everyone in the organization knows this.  I don't know why some people outside don't get this, but this is our fan base. 

As per above, I think it would be different if there was a sense of urgency in the org.  But when they let the same people who screwed up from 2013-2016 conduct the rebuild, don't make any management/coaching changes for 2 years in a row, they aren't exactly sending the message that fixing this on a timely basis is the top priority.   They have to earn the trust.

 

 

Edited by GreenSox

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7 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

As per above, I think it would be different if there was a sense of urgency in the org.  But when they let the same people who screwed up from 2013-2016 conduct the rebuild, don't make any management/coaching changes for 2 years in a row, they aren't exactly sending the message that fixing this on a timely basis is the top priority.   They have to earn the trust.

 

 

There shouldn't be a sense of urgency.  This is not a playoff team, and will need a minor miracle to hit .500.

The problem is the players aren't ready for primetime yet. Hell most of the position players are replacement level filler in all likelihood. The others are learning on the job. "Urgency " isn't going to change that.

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1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

^ This is exactly why rebuilding was always going to be a dicey proposition with our fan base.  Sox fans just don't buy in if it doesn't involve instant gratification.

This is a rebuild.  They are supposed to be losing now.  Everyone in the organization knows this.  I don't know why some people outside don't get this, but this is our fan base. 

There is nothing wrong with our small but hungry fan base, this team has lost more games then any other team in all of Baseball in the past 6 years, don't blame the fans blame this  organization from TOP to BOTTOM.

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8 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

Cubs, the with most talent the organization has ever had at one time, underperform after their second consecutive early playoff exit. 

This is why tanking/rebuilding slays me. I prefer the old way that got us a title in 2005. Being decent to good most years then having everything go right one year. The Cubs total rebuild has resulted in one WS title. Great. As a fan I would deem it a successful season making the playoffs as well. BUT no doubt the Cubs wanted more than one WS title with the rebuild. Are they gonna get more? Probably not. And if they don't, they got one WS title doing it the tank/rebuild way and we got one in 05 doing it the other way. This tank/rebuild stuff is not a guaranteed formula for success folks. I'm personally looking forward to Eloy raking with Moncada, Tim, Abreu, Avi, Palka and Davidson. Me likey that.

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1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Madrigal has been in the organization for like 4 months and Greg is done with him

I'm not done with him. I'm just saying are the folks who actively root for losses ecstatic over him? I hope he does just fine. Of course Timmy and Moncada are not going anywhere so even if he progresses at the rate he's supposed to, where's he gonna play? It's 3B for Moncada probably and Madrigal at second. I'm not saying that's a bad infield. I am just saying you folks who follow the draft should expect a much better prospect than Madrigal at No. 3 this year. Arguably the Sox pick needs to be Eloy-ish.

Edited by greg775

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