Dick Allen Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Baron said: No No No No! Please for the love of god no Yeah, 2013 called and said, good idea. He was an 0.5 fWAR last season. Adam Engel was an 0.2. This would be a ridiculous signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tony said: 1. I didn't say that, So don't put words in my mouth. 2. Those are not my only two choices. I can be hopeful this current batch of minor league prospects will develop, but White Sox history has shown me that's not a very solid bet. Sometimes there isn't an obvious choice, or the "right" choice. Hoping for Sox prospects to develop or hoping they spend a ton in free agency could be both losing propositions. It's a good reason why the Sox have been one of the worst franchises in sports. They can't seem to get either right. 4 minutes ago, Tony said: 1. I didn't say that, So don't put words in my mouth. 2. Those are not my only two choices. I can be hopeful this current batch of minor league prospects will develop, but White Sox history has shown me that's not a very solid bet. Sometimes there isn't an obvious choice, or the "right" choice. Hoping for Sox prospects to develop or hoping they spend a ton in free agency could be both losing propositions. It's a good reason why the Sox have been one of the worst franchises in sports. They can't seem to get either right. Sorry you didn't say that they won't produce anything from the minor, you said it was doubtful they would and isn't a good bet. But my point remains that you don't trust the system to produce productive players. So what do you think would be the best way to get the Sox back to be competitive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said: Does this mean he cost 25 runs or saved 25 runs? What is average/above average/below average? He gave up 25 runs in the outfield. Zero is about the median. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Yeah, 2013 called and said, good idea. He was an 0.5 fWAR last season. Adam Engel was an 0.2. This would be a ridiculous signing. Well yes to that and I hate ICB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tony said: When you can find where I said that, we can continue this discussion. But I can also save you some time and tell you I never said that. What I said was it's a fact the Sox have been piss poor at drafting and developing minor league talent. It can't be argued. At this point, after the last two seasons of the "rebuild" the Sox don't have much choice. If the current crop of minor leaguers perform the way most have the last 15 years, the Sox will find themselves in the basement of the AL Central for a long time. As I said earlier, I'm hopeful they develop. All I can have is hope. But it doesn't mean I have to believe they will turn into productive players? Why would I given the Sox history in identifying talent? Are you saying because the Sox picked this route, as I fan i just have to believe these guys will magically develop because Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams said so? I can't hold doubt? Again, you said would didn't trust the system oerformance and wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt. I apologize that I took that to meant that you didn't think they could develop good players. Those statements mean something different to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Tony said: It's incredibly simple. Draft and produce quality talent. The plan they are trying to pull off right now. Do I think they can do it? I have my serious doubts. As anyone should. The problem is it's not incredibly simple to accomplish. Otherwise MLB wouldn't have as many bad teams as they do. Edited December 12, 2018 by ptatc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, ptatc said: The problem is it's not incredibly simple. Otherwise MLB wouldn't have as many bad teams as they do. Exactly. Evaluating talent in baseball has to be incredibly difficult and moreso than the other sports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ptatc said: The problem is it's not incredibly simple. Otherwise MLB wouldn't have as many bad teams as they do. Yet the White Sox have a worse record than any other team the last 6 seasons. EVERY TEAM has been better than them. Edited December 12, 2018 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bigsoxhurt35 said: Exactly. Evaluating talent in baseball has to be incredibly difficult and moreso than the other sports It's especially hard when you let a group that hasn't shown they can do it in the past to continue executing it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Tony said: It's really sad how beaten down Sox fans have become. Over a 10 year period, the Sox have been one of the worst 3 teams in baseball, without question. You could argue the worst. Can we please raise the bar just a little bit, expect more from a professional franchise? I don't care even knowing the circumstances now, but the sox are looking at the 2010s as a complete lost decade, that is unacceptable for any franchise. Am I hopeful for the 2020s? Hell yeah! But, like, Hahn has been GM since 2013, he doesn't get any slack from me for taking possibly 8 years to get to playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Can we start a thread to discuss the lack of success rather than filling the Harper thread with it? I am really not interested in your discussion but want to know Harper news... 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschmaranz Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, yesterday333 said: Can we start a thread to discuss the lack of success rather than filling the Harper thread with it? I am really not interested in your discussion but want to know Harper news... The "official soxtalk grumpy curmudgeon thread". Dig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, yesterday333 said: Can we start a thread to discuss the lack of success rather than filling the Harper thread with it? I am really not interested in your discussion but want to know Harper news... No but I'm starting a thread for people who like to talk about what they like and don't like in threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Putting aside the issue of whether, or not, it makes good business sense and would be a prudent course of action, I think that the following plan may be what the front office is striving to accomplish: 1) I still think that they are targeting 2020 as the beginning of their window of contention. They are trying to sign Harper and, or Machado, because this is their opportunity to get them. However, they will likely not fill out the roster, in order to compete in 2019. They will need a backup catcher and another reliever, but they are not likely to try to fill all of the holes, but rather wait for Kopech, Cease, Dunning and Robert, in 2020. 2) They won't be able to find out what they have in Lopez and Giolito, unless they let them continue to be part of the rotation. Therefore, it will likely be Rodon, Lopez, Giolito, Nova and perhaps Covey, to start the season, with Cease coming on late. 3) They may be thinking that a big front loaded contract for the "marquee" star players will get it done, while still working for their long term plan. Perhaps something like $45 Million per year, per player, for the first 5 years, with much less in the later half of the contract. That could net them both players. 4) It would enhance their upcoming TV deal, and still not put them in an untenable financial situation. 5) It would satisfy the objective of keeping them both motivated, as they play for their opt out, in 5 years. 6) It would satisfy the fans, as well as garner terrific national exposure. 7) This year's lineup: Moncada, Machado, Harper, Abreu, Eloy, Palka, Anderson, Castillo/?, Engel 😎 2020 Lineup: Moncada, Machado, Harper, Eloy, Palka, Robert, Anderson, catcher?, first base/DH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, bmags said: I don't care even knowing the circumstances now, but the sox are looking at the 2010s as a complete lost decade, that is unacceptable for any franchise. Am I hopeful for the 2020s? Hell yeah! But, like, Hahn has been GM since 2013, he doesn't get any slack from me for taking possibly 8 years to get to playoffs. Our irrelevance since 2006 definitely plays a role in how free agents view us. Thankfully, they chase money too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said: Our irrelevance since 2006 definitely plays a role in how free agents view us. Thankfully, they chase money too. I don't know if it's realistic or not to hope for, but given the wreck our franchise has been pretty much our entire lives, save the one magic year, you'd hope that there would be some allure for someone like Harper or Machado to come in and potentially be a complete difference maker for a franchise like ours that they really couldn't be for a team like the Dodgers or Yankees. That perhaps given the kind of success they hope to have over the life of their next contracts, their legacies would be better served if they could be viewed as a primary reason for turning this franchise around (once and for all) vs. just being one of many stars on one of these other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Very somber in here this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, ChiSox59 said: Very somber in here this morning. I think people are just sick of losing and seeing the first prospects of the rebuild fail (Giolito/Moncada). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said: I think people are just sick of... seeing the first prospects of the rebuild fail (Giolito/Moncada). They of little faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightsOnMintSt Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said: Very somber in here this morning. I'm probably being impatient, but it has gone from excitement to "this just doesn't seem meant to be." On the bright side, a lot of things seem to be going in the Sox favor in terms of locking him down (I believe the Yankees and Phillies are out, that's just what seems like has happened so far). The Cubs dont worry me until they move some payroll, but I think if Harper had to choose right now, he would pick the Dodgers. My educated guess is that Boras is doing everything in his power so that the Dodgers up their offer from something like 10-year, $300 million to 10-year, $350-million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, maggsmaggs said: I think people are just sick of losing and seeing the first prospects of the rebuild fail (Giolito/Moncada). Most prospects fail when they first get to the big leagues. This also isn't some new development. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, KnightsOnMintSt said: I'm probably being impatient, but it has gone from excitement to "this just doesn't seem meant to be." On the bright side, a lot of things seem to be going in the Sox favor in terms of locking him down (I believe the Yankees and Phillies are out, that's just what seems like has happened so far). The Cubs dont worry me until they move some payroll, but I think if Harper had to choose right now, he would pick the Dodgers. My educated guess is that Boras is doing everything in his power so that the Dodgers up their offer from something like 10-year, $300 million to 10-year, $350-million. I am guessing the offers are above $300M (if 10 full years). I also don't think Harper or Machado are going to sign for weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said: I am guessing the offers are above $300M (if 10 full years). I also don't think Harper or Machado are going to sign for weeks. I don't think either signs this week, but I think at least one will sign this month. Edited December 12, 2018 by soxfan2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, KnightsOnMintSt said: I'm probably being impatient, but it has gone from excitement to "this just doesn't seem meant to be." On the bright side, a lot of things seem to be going in the Sox favor in terms of locking him down (I believe the Yankees and Phillies are out, that's just what seems like has happened so far). The Cubs dont worry me until they move some payroll, but I think if Harper had to choose right now, he would pick the Dodgers. My educated guess is that Boras is doing everything in his power so that the Dodgers up their offer from something like 10-year, $300 million to 10-year, $350-million. Haha these threads have done that 100 times over. Later this morning there will be a tweet indicating we might get it done and the excitement will blow up and we will be ready to throw a parade, then we will get something mentioning the big boys again and we will be ready to move the franchise to Portland. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) One thing Boras doesn't want is for Harper to sign soon and have Machado get more cash later, which if the Phillies or White Sox are still out there, and really as engaged as reported, is a really good possibility. The only way he could spin it is where Harper signed is where he wanted to be. Edited December 12, 2018 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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