Chicago White Sox Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Let’s take a closer look at this. Why were many big spenders sitting on the sidelines for these two guys this winter? Luxury tax isn’t going away in the future unless something happens with the new CBA. Or could it be perhaps that the big spenders view these two players as somewhat flawed and not worthy of $300M+ contracts. Would the big spenders be sitting on the sidelines if Lindor and Trout were available instead of Machado and Harper? I doubt it. That tells me something about how even the big spenders are valuing Machado and Harper. You’re right but we have zero chance at the Trout’s, Bett’s, & Lindor’s of the world. So either you go after that next tier of guys like Machado or Harper or you accept older guys, rebound types, and/or B tier free agents. I’d be willing to wager large sums of money we end up with one of Goldschmidt or Martinez next year. We’ll get one for big dollars on 4 or 5 year deal and Hahn will brag & boast about how awesome they are but will ignore the fact these guys will likely start to regress and are far more risky than the deals Machado & Harper got. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YonderLaroche Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 57 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Dye=broken leg AJ=clubhouse cancer, card player in the clubhouse during games El Duque=washed up/ancient, lost his stuff Contreras= great stuff, but questionable mental makeup, chokes against Boston Pods=sophomore slump Iguchi=nobody even knew who he was Hermanson=all kinds of health issues Jenks=close to being out of baseball due to off field issues lightning never strikes twice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 58 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Position player superstars scheduled to hit free agency over the next 3 years (unless they sign extensions of course but we already know a few plan to test the market for sure): Trout, Betts, Lindor, Correa, Seager, Bryant, Baez, Stanton (if he opts out). You have to include Rendon in that list . Seager was injured last year and his fWAR in 2016 was 7.0 and 2017 was 5.9 totaling 12.9, 2015 was a rookie with limited AB's Bryant 2018 2.3 due to some injuries 2017 6.7 ,2016 7.9 , 2015 6.1. Totaling 19.7 Rendon 2016 4.3 , 2017 6.7 ,2018 6.3 Totaling 17.3 3 of last 5 year had 6+ Correa has never had a 6.0 War but he also has only had 1 season with over 600PA the rest have been in the 400's due to injuries and rookie year. Baez had a 5.3 last year which was his only year higher than a 2.3 . Breakout campaign to be sure but not enough great years yet to be called a superstar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You’re right but we have zero chance at the Trout’s, Bett’s, & Lindor’s of the world. So either you go after that next tier of guys like Machado or Harper or you accept older guys, rebound types, and/or B tier free agents. I’d be willing to wager large sums of money we end up with one of Goldschmidt or Martinez next year. We’ll get one for big dollars on 4 or 5 year deal and Hahn will brag & boast about how awesome they are but will ignore the fact these guys will likely start to regress and are far more risky than the deals Machado & Harper got. I guess I find it difficult to pay “next tier” guys like Harper and Machado $300M+ contracts. Those types of contracts could destroy a mid market team like the Sox if they don’t live up to their contract. Apparently, many other teams felt the same way. Also, I’m only advocating for signing JDM, Goldy, etc. next winter if the young core takes a huge step forward this season. If they don’t and the Sox put up another 100 loss season, then you wait until the team is closer to competing to make a big splash. I’m not saying they need to be a 85 win team before making a big move but I’d at least like to see them as a 75+ win team that’s headed in the right direction. We still don’t know what we have here with a lot of these young guys. And quite frankly, if the young guys don’t develop what’s the point in having a $30-35M player on a 85+ loss team? What if the Sox develop a bunch of solid OFs from their minor league system but can’t seem to develop a catcher or starting rotation? Now we’ve tied up a huge sum of money for a player that’s a marginal upgrade from pre arb players and tied our hands on filling more pressing needs since significant resources have already been expended. Stars and scrubs roster just like pre rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: You have to include Rendon in that list . Seager was injured last year and his fWAR in 2016 was 7.0 and 2017 was 5.9 totaling 12.9, 2015 was a rookie with limited AB's Bryant 2018 2.3 due to some injuries 2017 6.7 ,2016 7.9 , 2015 6.1. Totaling 19.7 Rendon 2016 4.3 , 2017 6.7 ,2018 6.3 Totaling 17.3 3 of last 5 year had 6+ Correa has never had a 6.0 War but he also has only had 1 season with over 600PA the rest have been in the 400's due to injuries and rookie year. Baez had a 5.3 last year which was his only year higher than a 2.3 . Breakout campaign to be sure but not enough great years yet to be called a superstar. You’re right. I was just rattling off a handful of obvious names but I’m sure there are a few others I left out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: You’re right. I was just rattling off a handful of obvious names but I’m sure there are a few others I left out. No problem. He often gets overlooked when talking about the elite players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 22 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I guess I find it difficult to pay “next tier” guys like Harper and Machado $300M+ contracts. Those types of contracts could destroy a mid market team like the Sox if they don’t live up to their contract. Apparently, many other teams felt the same way. Also, I’m only advocating for signing JDM, Goldy, etc. next winter if the young core takes a huge step forward this season. If they don’t and the Sox put up another 100 loss season, then you wait until the team is closer to competing to make a big splash. I’m not saying they need to be a 85 win team before making a big move but I’d at least like to see them as a 75+ win team that’s headed in the right direction. We still don’t know what we have here with a lot of these young guys. And quite frankly, if the young guys don’t develop what’s the point in having a $30-35M player on a 85+ loss team? What if the Sox develop a bunch of solid OFs from their minor league system but can’t seem to develop a catcher or starting rotation? Now we’ve tied up a huge sum of money for a player that’s a marginal upgrade from pre arb players and tied our hands on filling more pressing needs since significant resources have already been expended. Stars and scrubs roster just like pre rebuild. Ironically, you just made the case for why Harper is such a good fit for the Phillies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 52 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Let’s take a closer look at this. Why were many big spenders sitting on the sidelines for these two guys this winter? Luxury tax isn’t going away in the future unless something happens with the new CBA. Or could it be perhaps that the big spenders view these two players as somewhat flawed and not worthy of $300M+ contracts. Would the big spenders be sitting on the sidelines if Lindor and Trout were available instead of Machado and Harper? I doubt it. That tells me something about how even the big spenders are valuing Machado and Harper. A good amount of it is coincidence. Why is Harper not a yankee? Because Giancarlo became available last offseason when the Marlins sold and Aaron Judge turned into a monster in 2017 - otherwise he's already a Yankee. Machado, why is he not a Dodger? Because Seager and Turner cover those positions there and you're not going to rotate those 3 guys. Why are the Red Sox out? In part because they're already at $230 million, in part because they still have a year left of Sandoval's deal on the books, in part because of Betts, Benintendi, Devers, and Bogarts; no needs at those positions this year. We know those teams will go over the tax level, but we also know they'll hesitate to do it at positions where they are already deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Ironically, you just made the case for why Harper is such a good fit for the Phillies. He’s certainly a better fit for the Phillies than the Sox given the current state of each rebuild (as was Machado). Phillies are just now emerging from a 6 year rebuild and trending in the right direction. They also have a much better idea of where their weaknesses lie with far fewer holes to fill. Again, just my opinion, but the Sox aren’t there yet which is why I’ve said all along that the pursuit of these guys feels premature (anywhere from 1-3 years premature). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: A good amount of it is coincidence. Why is Harper not a yankee? Because Giancarlo became available last offseason when the Marlins sold and Aaron Judge turned into a monster in 2017 - otherwise he's already a Yankee. Machado, why is he not a Dodger? Because Seager and Turner cover those positions there and you're not going to rotate those 3 guys. Why are the Red Sox out? In part because they're already at $230 million, in part because they still have a year left of Sandoval's deal on the books, in part because of Betts, Benintendi, Devers, and Bogarts; no needs at those positions this year. We know those teams will go over the tax level, but we also know they'll hesitate to do it at positions where they are already deep. Again, if the Yankees were truly sold on Harper and Manny they would have made room for them. You’re telling me the Yankees don’t have a spot for those guys because they’re blocked by Brett Gardner and Didi (hurt to start the season and then FA in 8 months)? LOL. Same with the Dodgers, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 37 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I guess I find it difficult to pay “next tier” guys like Harper and Machado $300M+ contracts. Those types of contracts could destroy a mid market team like the Sox if they don’t live up to their contract. Apparently, many other teams felt the same way. Also, I’m only advocating for signing JDM, Goldy, etc. next winter if the young core takes a huge step forward this season. If they don’t and the Sox put up another 100 loss season, then you wait until the team is closer to competing to make a big splash. I’m not saying they need to be a 85 win team before making a big move but I’d at least like to see them as a 75+ win team that’s headed in the right direction. We still don’t know what we have here with a lot of these young guys. And quite frankly, if the young guys don’t develop what’s the point in having a $30-35M player on a 85+ loss team? What if the Sox develop a bunch of solid OFs from their minor league system but can’t seem to develop a catcher or starting rotation? Now we’ve tied up a huge sum of money for a player that’s a marginal upgrade from pre arb players and tied our hands on filling more pressing needs since significant resources have already been expended. Stars and scrubs roster just like pre rebuild. If the Sox lose 100 games this year, we all should have grave concerns about the rebuild. That would mean our young players struggled to produce and 2021 contention would be in serious jeopardy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylo Kneehigh Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, steveno89 said: If the Sox lose 100 games this year, we all should have grave concerns about the rebuild. That would mean our young players struggled to produce and 2021 contention would be in serious jeopardy. Not true. If you have one area lacking, like pitching last year, it doesn't matter what all the young guys do, at least offensively, and if you are only using wins and loses as your metric. The young guys should be looked at in a vacuum this year. The young pitchers on the other hand are going to take time I think. 100 loses wouldn't only be on the young guys, that makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxwinner Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Worldbreaker Palk said: Not true. If you have one area lacking, like pitching last year, it doesn't matter what all the young guys do, at least offensively, and if you are only using wins and loses as your metric. The young guys should be looked at in a vacuum this year. The young pitchers on the other hand are going to take time I think. 100 loses wouldn't only be on the young guys, that makes no sense. If we lose 100 games this year, it's unlikely that we would be competing in 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, Worldbreaker Palk said: Not true. If you have one area lacking, like pitching last year, it doesn't matter what all the young guys do, at least offensively, and if you are only using wins and loses as your metric. The young guys should be looked at in a vacuum this year. The young pitchers on the other hand are going to take time I think. 100 loses wouldn't only be on the young guys, that makes no sense. We need to see strides from Giolito, Rodon, Lopez in the rotation otherwise we are essentially starting from scratch regarding starting pitching. Nova is a stopgap band-aid at this point. I never said that I am using wins and losses as my sole metric either. At some point the franchise needs to turn the corner and try to win games instead of tanking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 33 minutes ago, steveno89 said: If the Sox lose 100 games this year, we all should have grave concerns about the rebuild. That would mean our young players struggled to produce and 2021 contention would be in serious jeopardy. That was my stance going into 2018. I already have grave concerns. Machado was supposed to scare those away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Worldbreaker Palk said: Not true. If you have one area lacking, like pitching last year, it doesn't matter what all the young guys do, at least offensively, and if you are only using wins and loses as your metric. The young guys should be looked at in a vacuum this year. The young pitchers on the other hand are going to take time I think. 100 loses wouldn't only be on the young guys, that makes no sense. There's no way that the young guys play close to good enough to feel good moving forward and they lose more than 90ish games. Ex-prospects will be half the team by august. Edited February 28, 2019 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, whitesoxwinner said: If we lose 100 games this year, it's unlikely that we would be competing in 2020 We aren't competing in 2020. That shit flew out the window with Kopech and Machado. Edited February 28, 2019 by ChiSox59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxwinner Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: We aren't competing in 2020. That shit flew out the window with Kopech and Machado. Kopech will be back by 2020. It's possible, but only with some real progression from the first wave of prospects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, whitesoxwinner said: Kopech will be back by 2020. It's possible, but only with some real progression from the first wave of prospects You coulda talked me into hoping for a competitive run at a wild card in 2020 if this team had landed one of the big fish and things went right with Kopech, Cease, and some of the other pitchers. Now, if a lotta things go right, especially with the pitchers, they've got a shot to be where the Phillies were last year in 2020. That's the difference between adding an MVP caliber player and not having them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EloyJenkins Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 If Dodgers have bid high...he is going there no matter what we bid. That is what he wanted all along. Man, let's hope our prospects really take a step this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) Just to add one more possible right handed, middle of the order bat, to my list, it's likely that we draft Andrew Vaughn, with our 3RD pick. Unless Rutschman somehow falls to us, Vaughn is probably whom the Sox will select. By the way, have you noticed the hot start, he's having? That kid can hit. It looks like the conference may have decided to simply not pitch to him. He has 14 walks, versus just 3 strike outs, in the first 7 games. At any rate, let's hope Hahn has a trick up his sleeve and can steal Bryce, at the last minute. Give him 10 years, $375 million, with an opt out, after year 4 or 5. If he turns that down and signs with the Dodgers, I wouldn't fault ownership, or our front office. That is a serious bid. You can't make a player want to play for a team. Edited February 28, 2019 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, whitesoxwinner said: Kopech will be back by 2020. It's possible, but only with some real progression from the first wave of prospects Kopech won't have pitched in a 18 months. He'll be back, but to expect him to be able to pitch over 150 innings and actually be the ace we would need him to be to compete in 2020 is......a pipedream. Its possible in the sense that anything is possible. But there is no way this team is playing meaningful baseball in 2020 at this point, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Lillian said: Just to add one more possible right handed, middle of the order bat, to my list, it's likely that we draft Andrew Vaughn, with our 3RD pick. Unless Rutschman somehow falls to us, Vaughn is probably whom the Sox will select. By the way, have you noticed the hot start, he's having? That kid can hit. It looks like the conference may have decided to simply not pitch to him. He has 14 walks, versus just 3 strike outs, in the first 7 games. Just hope he fares better than Beckham, our last Golden Spikes winner or finalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Lillian said: Just to add one more possible right handed, middle of the order bat, to my list, it's likely that we draft Andrew Vaughn, with our 3RD pick. Unless Rutschman somehow falls to us, Vaughn is probably whom the Sox will select. By the way, have you noticed the hot start, he's having? That kid can hit. It looks like the conference may have decided to simply not pitch to him. He has 14 walks, versus just 3 strike outs, in the first 7 games. I know you don't draft for need, but is it too much to ask to not add another body to the 1st base/DH pile with a pick that high? Edited February 28, 2019 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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