Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: Tyler Flowers was a decent framing catcher going back to 2011. He also dramatically improved in his framing between 2016 and 2017 while working with another coaching staff, 2017 was his first elite framing year. So, you've got a guy who was always decent at it with the White Sox even before it became a thing to be measured, and he dramatically improved after leaving and being coached on it. Your example suggests to me it's not a big deal for the White Sox and that guys can improve with proper coaching. How? He was 8th in baseball in 2015 with 15.1 with the White Sox. The next year - his first in Atlanta - he was 17th at 8.1. Then in 2017 he was 3rd at 30 Then in 2018 he was 4th at 13.0 Flowers didn't dramatically improve with Atlanta - don't forget, just as with all defensive metrics they are volatile and using a year end number isn't wise. He wasn't twice as good in 2017 and then half as good in 2018. He has been really good since his last two years with the White Sox. Your point is misguided. The White Sox traded for Flowers from Atlanta - at the time, he was a bat first catcher who struggled behind the plate. When he left the organization to go back to Atlanta, he had clearly turned into one of the best framers in baseball. That was under the watch and advising of the White Sox; however much you want to discredit that. Edited March 5, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 45 minutes ago, fathom said: I will never understand why they gave up on him https://mobile.twitter.com/MarksReeseWIP/status/1103011984528891905 Seems fairly straight forward: no contracts longer than 8 years and no money more than 250m, and if you do want to offer both of those the player better weep in gratitude for being so generous to him. Hard caps from moneybags JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 59 minutes ago, fathom said: I will never understand why they gave up on him https://mobile.twitter.com/MarksReeseWIP/status/1103011984528891905 It's crazy. Both of these guys could have been had. I have no doubt in my mind that if all money was equal he would have picked the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, fathom said: I will never understand why they gave up on him https://mobile.twitter.com/MarksReeseWIP/status/1103011984528891905 Honesty, I think it’s because the front office overrates our OF prospects (plus the $250M and/or 8 year cap) Edited March 5, 2019 by Chicago White Sox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 MLB.com now has a story quoting Harper as saying he's going to start "recruiting" Trout for the Phillies in 2020. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 3 hours ago, EvilJester99 said: This doesn't enrage me as much as the Padres late interest, because we already know by this point that Harper's reps and the Phillies had been meeting, and their interest was well established from the beginning. This isn't the Phillies suddenly getting the bright idea to go after Harper in mid-to-late February. This more likely points to them being more in on Machado, and then once Machado signed with the Padres (February 19th, qualifies as mid-late February), then the Phillies shifted all their attention to Harper while Jerry farted on his hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goober Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Early bird gets the worm. Unless you're a piss poor franchise like the Sox. Then you get Jack Shit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 "Tomorrows dollars deferred at yesterdays prices with incentives we control" The white sox contract negotiation method 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangon Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 11 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: MLB.com now has a story quoting Harper as saying he's going to start "recruiting" Trout for the Phillies in 2020. The Angels have reported him to MLB for tampering. He could get a fine. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/angels-notify-mlb-of-harper-comments-on-trout-recruitment.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, glangon said: The Angels have reported him to MLB for tampering. He could get a fine. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/angels-notify-mlb-of-harper-comments-on-trout-recruitment.html There's no way players already don't talk about playing together off the record, but yeah it's kind of dumb to make those comments in front of a camera. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Time has passed, and I am still pissed at the White Sox. How on earth did they supposedly have a framework in place for signing both? It would have had to be "get manny for 250" then throw enough at Harper to get him to sign. But they straight up gave up on Harper like a bunch of little b****es. If they thought they'd get both of these players for 500 million, they are delusional and have been fooling themselves for the 2 years leading up to this offseason. At the end of the day one sentiment still rings true for me. Fuck this franchise, mainly the ownership and front office. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 minute ago, South Sider said: Time has passed, and I am still pissed at the White Sox. How on earth did they supposedly have a framework in place for signing both? It would have had to be "get manny for 250" then throw enough at Harper to get him to sign. But they straight up gave up on Harper like a bunch of little b****es. If they thought they'd get both of these players for 500 million, they are delusional and have been fooling themselves for the 2 years leading up to this offseason. At the end of the day one sentiment still rings true for me. Fuck this franchise, mainly the ownership and front office. I think 500 is way more than they thought they would get them for - notice how when Manny's deal requirements started rising past the White sox's initial offer, you got comments from Hahn at Soxfest about how they didn't think they could do both and still maintain "Flexibility" or whatever it was he said. I think they thought they could get both for just over $400 mil. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I think 500 is way more than they thought they would get them for - notice how when Manny's deal requirements started rising past the White sox's initial offer, you got comments from Hahn at Soxfest about how they didn't think they could do both and still maintain "Flexibility" or whatever it was he said. I think they thought they could get both for just over $400 mil. Probably true, according to Kenny, they were out on bryce when his prices started to exceed manny's (which he implied the sox valued manny more). So if they felt they came to bat with 250 for manny knowing they were out on harper, I tend to think your $400 is closer to right than $500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 I don’t believe the Sox ever thought they could get both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: I think 500 is way more than they thought they would get them for - notice how when Manny's deal requirements started rising past the White sox's initial offer, you got comments from Hahn at Soxfest about how they didn't think they could do both and still maintain "Flexibility" or whatever it was he said. I think they thought they could get both for just over $400 mil. That can't be true at all, not with Giancarlo Stanton's contract already out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 2 hours ago, glangon said: The Angels have reported him to MLB for tampering. He could get a fine. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/angels-notify-mlb-of-harper-comments-on-trout-recruitment.html Well gee I hope he can afford it 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Who even cares what Harper said? He said what everyone is thinking with Trout coming home, and plus, he said "in 2020" not "I'm going to start in March 2019" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: I think 500 is way more than they thought they would get them for - notice how when Manny's deal requirements started rising past the White sox's initial offer, you got comments from Hahn at Soxfest about how they didn't think they could do both and still maintain "Flexibility" or whatever it was he said. I think they thought they could get both for just over $400 mil. Every time I think about Hahn talking about unprecedented financial flexibility, I feel like Albert Brooks character in the movie Lost In America when he gets mad at his wife about losing their nest egg. "Rick, you can no longer use the words unprecedented or flexibility because you clearly do not know what they mean!!!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 On 3/5/2019 at 8:14 AM, Dick Allen said: It would have been interesting to see exactly what happened if the Sox signed one of these guys. It might have really changed things forever. The fan base has been beat down so much and so long, it's just assumed the White Sox operate like they are the Pittsburgh Pirates. Who knows what this might have started. Has anyone on Twitter or the regular media come up with a early dollar figure about sold tickets or new season tix and merchandise related to the Harper signing ? I'm thinking he's probably close to already paying for his 1st season . The Sox fan base would have been just as excited but kind of doubt they could match what Phillies fans have spent so far. The Sox payroll commitment for 2020 is only $12.5M for Herrera and Anderson's salary's. That's if they let Abreu go and Alonso doesn't reach his plate appearances. They buyout Castillo for 500K so add that to salary commitment for 2020 right ? $13M now ? Jones has a club option next year. Rodon , Colome , Sanchez and Garcia are all Arb .3 guys,so technically not counted as a 2020 salary commitment until salary is determined. Guys who are pre arb also salary's don;t count because technically they can be non tendered. Pretty low next year the way I described it. Really makes no sense to extend Abreu. Use the damn unprecedented low payroll flexibilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Has anyone on Twitter or the regular media come up with a early dollar figure about sold tickets or new season tix and merchandise related to the Harper signing ? I'm thinking he's probably close to already paying for his 1st season . The Sox fan base would have been just as excited but kind of doubt they could match what Phillies fans have spent so far. The Sox payroll commitment for 2020 is only $12.5M for Herrera and Anderson's salary's. That's if they let Abreu go and Alonso doesn't reach his plate appearances. They buyout Castillo for 500K so add that to salary commitment for 2020 right ? $13M now ? Jones has a club option next year. Rodon , Colome , Sanchez and Garcia are all Arb .3 guys,so technically not counted as a 2020 salary commitment until salary is determined. Guys who are pre arb also salary's don;t count because technically they can be non tendered. Pretty low next year the way I described it. Really makes no sense to extend Abreu. Use the damn unprecedented low payroll flexibilty. The last quoted number was something like 220,000 tickets sold - at some point you have to stop counting because there would be normal, everyday single game tickets sold otherwise that are being counted. I looked up the Phillies average ticket price last week and it was just below $40. Assuming that those 220,000 seats aren't weirdly biased in some way towards low or high price tickets, that's nearly $10 million just from the first half week of initial ticket sales, not counting parking or concessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The last quoted number was something like 220,000 tickets sold - at some point you have to stop counting because there would be normal, everyday single game tickets sold otherwise that are being counted. I looked up the Phillies average ticket price last week and it was just below $40. Assuming that those 220,000 seats aren't weirdly biased in some way towards low or high price tickets, that's nearly $10 million just from the first half week of initial ticket sales, not counting parking or concessions. Plus there was another post somewhere around here about jersey sales or something going way up so anything with Harpers name on can be continually counted. Edited March 6, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Plus there was another post somewhere around here about jersey sales or something going way up so anything with Harpers name on can be continually counted. I am over 90% sure that we are consistently told that jersey sale revenues go into an MLB central fund where they have been licensed by the league rather than by the teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I am over 90% sure that we are consistently told that jersey sale revenues go into an MLB central fund where they have been licensed by the league rather than by the teams. I read that too. I forgot . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Buffalo Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: The Sox payroll commitment for 2020 is only $12.5M for Herrera and Anderson's salary's. That's if they let Abreu go and Alonso doesn't reach his plate appearances. They buyout Castillo for 500K so add that to salary commitment for 2020 right ? $13M now ? Jones has a club option next year. Rodon , Colome , Sanchez and Garcia are all Arb .3 guys,so technically not counted as a 2020 salary commitment until salary is determined. Guys who are pre arb also salary's don;t count because technically they can be non tendered. Pretty low next year the way I described it. Really makes no sense to extend Abreu. Use the damn unprecedented low payroll flexibilty. Yep. With the low salary overhead the next few years, Sox could have matched the Phillies dollars and years and front-loaded the contract. $25M this year $40M the next two would leave them an average of $20M the next ten years. When "the core" is ready to re-up, Haprer's contract wouldn't have hindered the team from making financial commitments in the future. I can't get over how dumb they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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