whitesoxwinner Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: From what I know the Sox were not told anything about a final SD offer. Sox made their updated offer Monday Night (which obviously wasn't close to good enough). They thought they were in a good spot. Lozano and Machado got the $300 million guarantee from San Diego and took the offer. At least that's how I thought it went down. The Sox misplayed the market. They got burned. But I don't believe there was some sort of back and forth where they were given the option to match an offer. They just lost out. I refuse to believe Lazano didnt give the sox a chance to beat it. If that's true, how is he a top tier agent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, fathom said: If it was that cut and dry, I doubt KW would have been so pissed. I don't know, I took from KW that he was kinda throwing shade at padres for being gullible and increasing their bidding based on lozano saying there was a team at 300 but I can't find a transcript anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Y2Jimmy0 said: From what I know the Sox were not told anything about a final SD offer. Sox made their updated offer Monday Night (which obviously wasn't close to good enough). They thought they were in a good spot. Lozano and Machado got the $300 million guarantee from San Diego and took the offer. At least that's how I thought it went down. The Sox misplayed the market. They got burned. But I don't believe there was some sort of back and forth where they were given the option to match an offer. They just lost out. The first reports were very clear that Lozano's side called around on Monday basically asking the 3 teams if they would put $300 million on the table guaranteed. That was high enough to knock the Phillies out, the White Sox had no idea other teams were even involved and stuck to their previous offer, and the Padres said yes. The White Sox probably did up their offer on Monday - either a small boost to the guarantee or perhaps a shift in those option years, but those option years were so crappy that the Padres saying "Yes" was a much smarter move. They weren't told about San Diego's final offer, but they were given an offer that Machado would sign at $300 and stuck to their much lower value. The Padres said yes when presented that dollar amount, which was higher than their previous $280 - and people have said that the White Sox were told the Padres were in at a higher number than them last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skooch Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: There can't be more than 1 dollar amount for the option year, the text of the CBA doesn't allow that. If he has a 10/$300 deal, then the luxury tax amount must be $30 million. It can't suddenly balloon to $350 over the same time period because it would be a way around the luxury tax But could you assign a maximum value? That is allow the comp to float but to max at a certain value. That would allow the luxury tax calculation based on the maximum being reached. Not sure if it's allowed, but it would be creative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: From what I know the Sox were not told anything about a final SD offer. Sox made their updated offer Monday Night (which obviously wasn't close to good enough). They thought they were in a good spot. Lozano and Machado got the $300 million guarantee from San Diego and took the offer. At least that's how I thought it went down. The Sox misplayed the market. They got burned. But I don't believe there was some sort of back and forth where they were given the option to match an offer. They just lost out. Hahn did mention the offer Monday night was their final offer. I don't know if he meant final as there was no way they were going any higher and final bids were asked, or final as Lozano didn't ask them if they could better it after getting SD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, whitesoxwinner said: I refuse to believe Lazano didnt give the sox a chance to beat it. If that's true, how is he a top tier agent? Right. You would think he would say: "we have an offer of $300 mill in hand. Will you match or beat that?" Then Sox decide if he is bluffing, and he takes the money. Edited February 21, 2019 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, bmags said: I don't know, I took from KW that he was kinda throwing shade at padres for being gullible and increasing their bidding based on lozano saying there was a team at 300 but I can't find a transcript anywhere. Him saying he’s never been more ticked off in his fucking life seems more hostile than that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: Right. You would think he would say: "we have an offer of $300 mill in hand. Will you match or beat that?" Then Sox decide if he is bluffing, and he takes the money. Yes, but KW did say $300 million guaranteed was out of the question. So either way, it didn't matter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, soxfan2014 said: Right. You would think he would say: "we have an offer of $300 mill in hand. Will you match or beat that?" Then Sox decide if he is bluffing, and he takes the money. Think of the context - Lozano's number has been higher all offseason and the White Sox know that, he's coming down to $300 million. He gives them the number and asks if they will accept it and the White Sox say no. If all 3 teams say no then it's still open, but one of them correctly said yes. They didn't need to go around to the other teams because the White Sox already told them no to matching the offer San Diego accepted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, fathom said: Him saying he’s never been more ticked off in his fucking life seems more hostile than that Eh 1) it's kenny williams and when he has spoken to media last 5 years he's either been pissed or overly braggadocious 2) This aligns with my view of the owner and maybe org, that would be pissed at another org bidding against themselves and "overpaying" players and getting played by the agents, thus hurting the playing field for teams or however they view their fake constraints they've put on themselves for the last 2 decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 NotHahn has a source who is either lying or made up. If the White Sox were in on Harper (they're not) it would be obvious theyre telling everyone theyre out and keeping it close to the chest.. yet NotHahns source told him they are in - 100% going against the message the sox would be trying to send. So not only is it obvious they're out - they acquired 2 of mannys friends for God sakes and came up 50 million short - but I dont get why anyone would get their hopes up again. Philly will give Harper 280-300. The Sox wont. Unless you think they're so incompetent that they truly value Harper 30-50 million more over machado despite spending 13 million on his friends. The Sox are out on Harper. Boras wont accept less than 300 million. The Sox will not offer it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: Right. You would think he would say: "we have an offer of $300 mill in hand. Will you match or beat that?" Then Sox decide if he is bluffing, and he takes the money. The simplest explanation is the Sox thought they were high bid and no one was offering 300. They were wrong and Lozano wasn’t bluffing. Instead of admitting to blowing it, KW brings up then 300 obstacle as a way to try and rationalize the error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, whitesoxwinner said: I refuse to believe Lazano didnt give the sox a chance to beat it. If that's true, how is he a top tier agent? Why? He got 10 years and $300 million from San Diego. We were all incorrect about Manny's reluctance to play there. He obviously does. The agent wanted to say he signed the biggest FA deal ever and they did. We shouldn't assume anymore that Manny would have rather played in Chicago than San Diego. That doesn't appear to be true regardless of how bad the Sox fucked up the negotiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Y2Jimmy0 said: Why? He got 10 years and $300 million from San Diego. We were all incorrect about Manny's reluctance to play there. He obviously does. The agent wanted to say he signed the biggest FA deal ever and they did. We shouldn't assume anymore that Manny would have rather played in Chicago than San Diego. That doesn't appear to be true regardless of how bad the Sox fucked up the negotiation. Yep Sox never had a “home field advantage” in this recruitment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, fathom said: The simplest explanation is the Sox thought they were high bid and no one was offering 300. They were wrong and Lozano wasn’t bluffing. Instead of admitting to blowing it, KW brings up then 300 obstacle as a way to try and rationalize the error. 5 minutes ago, fathom said: Him saying he’s never been more ticked off in his fucking life seems more hostile than that Think of how this fits if the story I told earlier is true. The White Sox thought they were bidding against themselves, the white sox's player evaluations are a mess, so even when they were presented with a chance to sign him at $300 they laughed it off and thought no team would be anywhere close to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, fathom said: Yep Sox never had a “home field advantage” in this recruitment Honestly guys what does this even mean, would any of us have valued home field advantage at $50 million? The sox should have known that manny wanted 1) Most money (if being generous, at least from teams not yankees) 2) a top contract that validated his place in the game. We know 300 was a big number for him, and vested options would not have been truly reported as part of what he signed for. It would have been sox sign manny for 8 for 250. Home field advantage is sox give manny a 10 year 300 mill contract, san diego gives manny a 10 year, 300 mill contract, and he signs with sox. It is not a 50 million difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: The first reports were very clear that Lozano's side called around on Monday basically asking the 3 teams if they would put $300 million on the table guaranteed. That was high enough to knock the Phillies out, the White Sox had no idea other teams were even involved and stuck to their previous offer, and the Padres said yes. The White Sox probably did up their offer on Monday - either a small boost to the guarantee or perhaps a shift in those option years, but those option years were so crappy that the Padres saying "Yes" was a much smarter move. They weren't told about San Diego's final offer, but they were given an offer that Machado would sign at $300 and stuck to their much lower value. The Padres said yes when presented that dollar amount, which was higher than their previous $280 - and people have said that the White Sox were told the Padres were in at a higher number than them last week. The Sox were trying to navigate through the bs though. They likely didn’t know what was true and what wasn’t. Negotiating is an art, not a science. It’s doubtful that they knew what Lozano had and didn’t. They gambled and lost. As of right now, Boras is claiming to have a big offer on the table already. What the hell does that really mean? Its anyone’s guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 $300 million was the magical number. Taxes wouldn't have played a roll. They would have taken less total payout to say $300 million rather than $290 million or $299 million. KW said they weren't going to go there, so he took an offer the Sox wouldn't have matched had they known it would have brought him to Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: Think of how this fits if the story I told earlier is true. The White Sox thought they were bidding against themselves, the white sox's player evaluations are a mess, so even when they were presented with a chance to sign him at $300 they laughed it off and thought no team would be anywhere close to that. They didn’t want to bid against themselves. They thought 250 was enough, so why go to 300? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, fathom said: They didn’t want to bid against themselves. They thought 250 was enough, so why go to 300? I don't understand how this jives with being pissed off though. To me what you were saying earlier is they were mislead. But Lozano clearly told them higher numbers were needed and they balked. So sure, if KW is saying "I have never been so pissed off at misidentifying the market" then fine, but you seem to be implying it's not the sox fault, it's that they were mislead by Lozano, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I strongly suspect that Machado's team told his suitors that if they would give the thumbs up to 10 years 300 with a mid-contract opt out, they'd accept on the spot and would not go to any other teams to match or beat it. He probably went to each team in order of preference, presumably Philly, then Sox, then Padres. Sox didn't get some last minute call because the point of the offer was to close out the process and make a team jump a little higher than they otherwise might have for the certainty of ending the bidding. Sox assumed nobody would go for the deal and they were wrong. All that being said, if you were willing to go to that number or some other number, there's not really any good reason to lay that out there after the fact. This is especially true if you have any interest in getting Harper. Even if we want to be cheap on Harper, to try to play the long odds of scoring him at a discount you have to signal that you could never pay anything but discount price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, fathom said: They didn’t want to bid against themselves. They thought 250 was enough, so why go to 300? How many times did the insiders say exactly that - they weren't going to bid against themselves. As we see these details and answers, it seems to me like the White Sox leaked like a sieve during these negotiations, and the things that all the insiders said all fit together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, iamshack said: The Sox were trying to navigate through the bs though. They likely didn’t know what was true and what wasn’t. Negotiating is an art, not a science. It’s doubtful that they knew what Lozano had and didn’t. They gambled and lost. As of right now, Boras is claiming to have a big offer on the table already. What the hell does that really mean? Its anyone’s guess. My concern from the beginning was that the Sox were out of their depth in this negotiation and it is becoming apparent that is possibly what lost them Machado. The problem I have with all of the alleged "inside" information, was that even if people were getting it directly from Hahn, he really had no idea what was going on. Based on the confidence of certain insiders, I would have thought the word on the street was "Sox will top any offer", that clearly was not the case. So Im not sure why people were so confident about what was going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I think the Sox got jobbed because they were not to willing to go 10/300. They must have thought they could sign him for less. It was a financial decision and not so much a failure of strategy. We know they have not really earned a seat at the big boys table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, Soxbadger said: My concern from the beginning was that the Sox were out of their depth in this negotiation and it is becoming apparent that is possibly what lost them Machado. The problem I have with all of the alleged "inside" information, was that even if people were getting it directly from Hahn, he really had no idea what was going on. Based on the confidence of certain insiders, I would have thought the word on the street was "Sox will top any offer", that clearly was not the case. So Im not sure why people were so confident about what was going on. No one said that, that I’m aware of. And secondly, I told you if the bidding reached a certain point they may refocus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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