Machado: Update - Manny, do you officially like us?

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

I think it's ridiculous these dopes were given the chance to do the rebuild. They already have shown their incompetence. We will wait for next year's free agents, and get shutout and say well he really wanted to be a Yankee or a Cub or a Red Sox or a Dodger, nothing could have been done.  Oh well, maybe Yolmer will dump some water on his head again.  Why doesn't anyone have their heart set to be a White Sox? We know why, it's because they suck. 

They were never given the chance before, so it remains to be seen. Regardless of that., here is where the Sox are. You have two choices, wait 2 years to see if their prospects pan out or fire them all and give the next FO 4 years to see if their plan works. They may as well see how this works out before moving to the next plan.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I know some of you guys have already abandoned the Machado ship, but I’m going to reiterate the silence from legit insiders is deafening.  Not a single guy has responded to Dan Clark’s report.  If things were really as close as some of these minor / New York “insiders” were suggesting, one of the national guys would have gotten some indication on this by now and tweeted accordingly.  I truly don’t think a decision has been made yet and fully believe we’re still in this thing.

Rosenthal hasn't tweeted anything for a while. He must be on vacation. I think a lot of these guys have sources that aren't available. 

 

I am surprised no one is taking a shot saying Manny is signing with Philadelphia or the White Sox. I read a New Jersey paper the other day before the Clark thing and he made it Yankees favorite, Phillies, White Sox and he said distant 3rd. But he also said he had Corbin to the Nats distant third until they blew away the competition.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Scoots said:

Someone's having a shitty Monday

Not really. This stuff really doesn't take over my life like it used to. But I do have an opinion. 

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They were never given the chance before, so it remains to be seen. Regardless of that., here is where the Sox are. You have two choices, wait 2 years to see if their prospects pan out or fire them all and give the next FO 4 years to see if their plan works. They may as well see how this works out before moving to the next plan.

Not at a total rebuild but they were given plenty of chances during their tenure, and except for one season, it was one mistake after another. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Rosenthal hasn't tweeted anything for a while. He must be on vacation. I think a lot of these guys have sources that aren't available. 

 

I am surprised no one is taking a shot saying Manny is signing with Philadelphia or the White Sox. I read a New Jersey paper the other day before the Clark thing and he made it Yankees favorite, Phillies, White Sox and he said distant 3rd. But he also said he had Corbin to the Nats distant third until they blew away the competition.

It not news that the Yankmees are the favorites.  Machado said they were from the start. People have been saying that since last season.

[ptatc]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

Not at a total rebuild but they were given plenty of chances during their tenure, and except for one season, it was one mistake after another. 

No doubt. But the total rebuild was they only real way this team, that was stuck in mediocrity had a chance to build sustained success. Once they got approval from JR, they need to give it a chance. Listening to just the fans on this board, do you wonder why they were reluctant to authorize a total rebuild in previous years?

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No doubt. But the total rebuild was they only real way this team, that was stuck in mediocrity had a chance to build sustained success. Once they got approval from JR, they need to give it a chance. Listening to just the fans on this board, do you wonder why they were reluctant to authorize a total rebuild in previous years?

This team was in desperate need of a rebuild for sure. However, skepticism, at the start of the rebuild, of if the right people are in the front office to lead the rebuild is completely fair,

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No doubt. But the total rebuild was they only real way this team, that was stuck in mediocrity had a chance to build sustained success. Once they got approval from JR, they need to give it a chance. Listening to just the fans on this board, do you wonder why they were reluctant to authorize a total rebuild in previous years?

Maybe, but it's like hiring someone to remodel your bathroom, and having them screw it up, but you like them so you have them re model your kitchen, and they screw it up. Your house is so screwed up, you decide to tear it down and rebuild it. JR called the guys who messed up his bathroom and kitchen, and told them they were the best people to build him a house.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

25 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Career year?  How was this season that much different than his 2015 & 2016 seasons?  And do you not expect young players to improve as they reach their prime?  Come on man, just come out and say you don’t like the dude and are unable to be objective.

Also, if you’re only interesting in signing players that want to be here, then god only knows when the next free agent will be joining us.  Outside of summers in Chicago, we aren’t a very desirable destination at the moment and won’t be until we have some level of sustained success.

Career high in HR, RBI, AVG, OBP, SLG and 146 OPS+ last year even after a bit of drop in production following the mid season trade. His previous OPS+ high of 132 was back in 2015. Not sure how last year wouldn’t be considered a career year.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It not news that the Yankmees are the favorites.  Machado said they were from the start. People have been saying that since last season.

If that was the case, why create all this excitement and false hope in the fan base if you didn’t realistically feel you had a shot?

I just wonder if the Alonso thing was the White Sox getting all outside the box or they were given that advice by Lozano as a way to make them “realistic competitors” for his services?

The other thing that makes no sense is why eliminate the Phillies if they were connected to the “stupid money”...why not just declare the White Sox out of it?

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Career high in HR, RBI, AVG, OBP, SLG and 146 OPS+ last year even after a bit of drop in production following the mid season trade. His previous OPS+ high of 132 was back in 2015. Not sure how last year wouldn’t be considered a career year.

He also was in his age 25-26 season, so it's not that unusual. Theoretically, his best seasons are still ahead. 

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

This team was in desperate need of a rebuild for sure. However, skepticism, at the start of the rebuild, of if the right people are in the front office to lead the rebuild is completely fair,

Yes it is. However, since that can't be changed they need to look at what is the plan moving forward.

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Maybe, but it's like hiring someone to remodel your bathroom, and having them screw it up, but you like them so you have them re model your kitchen, and they screw it up. Your house is so screwed up, you decide to tear it down and rebuild it. JR called the guys who messed up his bathroom and kitchen, and told them they were the best people to build him a house.

It could also be that the worker kept telling you that the bathroom was moldy and rotted and they needed to tear out the floor boards to build a good lasting bathroom. However, you decided  it didn't matter and you just wanted the new vanities to make it look good and enjoy it.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He also was in his age 25-26 season, so it's not that unusual. Theoretically, his best seasons are still ahead. 

I guess only time will tell! Personally I want nothing to do with the guy at the price he is expected to command from a team like the Sox. I can understand why others would be willing to give him ~$42MM AAV but not me.

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No doubt. But the total rebuild was they only real way this team, that was stuck in mediocrity had a chance to build sustained success. Once they got approval from JR, they need to give it a chance. Listening to just the fans on this board, do you wonder why they were reluctant to authorize a total rebuild in previous years?

If they went for a non-retread manager (who wasn’t good enough for the Cubs) and brought in a really innovative GM and revamped scouting department, they would have bought themselves at least another couple of years.

If everything was on track, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.   It would be about why Machado wouldn’t want to be part of such a promising future...not unlike Harrelson hyped for a certain unnamed division rival in 2011-12-13.  He could see all the pieces coming together before almost anyone jumped on the bandwagon.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Yes it is. However, since that can't be changed they need to look at what is the plan moving forward.

The thing is, it can be changed. It won't, but it can and should. If acquiring Machado AND/or Harper, I put and in caps because they leaked to Nightengale, they wouldn't mind both, doesn't happen, would mean their plan has gone awry. It's time for new blood. The team will still have the same players. The Blackhawks weren't ruined switching out Tallon for Bowman, which was pretty much in the middle of their rebuild. 

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If that was the case, why create all this excitement and false hope in the fan base if you didn’t realistically feel you had a shot?

I just wonder if the Alonso thing was the White Sox getting all outside the box or they were given that advice by Lozano as a way to make them “realistic competitors” for his services?

The other thing that makes no sense is why eliminate the Phillies if they were connected to the “stupid money”...why not just declare the White Sox out of it?

Just because they were the favorites,  doesn't mean they didn't have a chance. You would prefer that Machado came to Chicago for a visit and the FO said, "we just want to see."

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It could also be that the worker kept telling you that the bathroom was moldy and rotted and they needed to tear out the floor boards to build a good lasting bathroom. However, you decided  it didn't matter and you just wanted the new vanities to make it look good and enjoy it.

Well the workers in this case would have been responsible for that mold. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They were never given the chance before, so it remains to be seen. Regardless of that., here is where the Sox are. You have two choices, wait 2 years to see if their prospects pan out or fire them all and give the next FO 4 years to see if their plan works. They may as well see how this works out before moving to the next plan.

Rebuilds don’t happen in a year or two. FWIW most posters were excited about the big 3 trades when it happened, and some were also able giving stamps of approval on the Rutherford trade. The draft philosophy has changed in the last few years where plate discipline is being emphasized. We made the sexy move by going for the biggest name in J2 signing. Most fans were happy about these moves when they happened, so calling for firing of them after 2 years (especially Hahn) is asinine, epecially since the minors were mauled by injuries this year. Give Hahn another 2 years with these prospects before bringing out the lynch mob.

[GreenSox]

34 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You haven't given the rebuild a chance. It's been 2 years. I agree if the rebuild doesn't work they need to clean house. But you need to give a total rebuild a chance to succeed. Changing it in mid process wont help. They need to see if they prospects will indeed work. If not it's going to be another 5 years of the same process with another FO. Build with just FA is not a winning formula.

Building through FAs and veteran trades has zero chance of working (we saw that frmo 2014-2016).  But a different FO would just continue the rebuild, re-evaluate and put in different development programs for these prospects.  That said, Hahn &Co.  will get their full chance.
I do wish they'd be a little more open minded about the lack of tangible progress and whether this set of coaches/evaluators/ developers are all the best they can do.    Cooper and Steverson have already had their hands on several blue-chip prospects....it would be good to see some above average regulars come out of that soon.

Edited December 31, 2018 by GreenSox

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

The thing is, it can be changed. It won't, but it can and should. If acquiring Machado AND/or Harper, I put and in caps because they leaked to Nightengale, they wouldn't mind both, doesn't happen, would mean their plan has gone awry. It's time for new blood. The team will still have the same players. The Blackhawks weren't ruined switching out Tallon for Bowman, which was pretty much in the middle of their rebuild. 

But if they change it, there is a guaranteed 4 more years of a rebuild. Unless the team has success in the next 2 years, in that case the current FO was successful. 

[Flash Tizzle]

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I know some of you guys have already abandoned the Machado ship, but I’m going to reiterate the silence from legit insiders is deafening.  Not a single guy has responded to Dan Clark’s report.  If things were really as close as some of these minor / New York “insiders” were suggesting, one of the national guys would have gotten some indication on this by now and tweeted accordingly.  I truly don’t think a decision has been made yet and fully believe we’re still in this thing.

I agree that it’s odd how national media pundits haven’t chimed in either supporting or denying the information. After Christmas everything died and this Ny- Machado information came forth to fill the information void.

I don’t know what to make of it, but we either have to believe there’s a chance because of the lack of corroboration; or accept it as a real possibility the Sox will miss out. I wish I could be more enthusiastic, but White Sox history has prepared me for the “we presented a strong offer but fell short” response

[Chicago White Sox]

21 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Rosenthal hasn't tweeted anything for a while. He must be on vacation. I think a lot of these guys have sources that aren't available. 

 

I am surprised no one is taking a shot saying Manny is signing with Philadelphia or the White Sox. I read a New Jersey paper the other day before the Clark thing and he made it Yankees favorite, Phillies, White Sox and he said distant 3rd. But he also said he had Corbin to the Nats distant third until they blew away the competition.

Here’s my legit, unbiased guess on what’s happening.  I truly believe the Sox & Phillies are offering substantially more money than the Yankees.  All else being equal, Manny would love to go to New York and has told people as much, but is unlikely to leave big money on the table.  I’m guessing Dan Clark had heard the former from someone close to Machado and is simply exaggerating the certainty of him joining the Yankees because most people think it’s his likely landing spot and he has an opportunity to be the “first to report”.  I’m also going to guess offers are not truly final and that Manny is thinking through how much money he’s willing to pass on to play in New York.  I would imagine there is still some last minute gamemanship to take place.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Rebuilds don’t happen in a year or two. FWIW most posters were excited about the big 3 trades when it happened, and some were also able giving stamps of approval on the Rutherford trade. The draft philosophy has changed in the last few years where plate discipline is being emphasized. We made the sexy move by going for the biggest name in J2 signing. Most fans were happy about these moves when they happened, so calling for firing of them after 2 years (especially Hahn) is asinine, epecially since the minors were mauled by injuries this year. Give Hahn another 2 years with these prospects before bringing out the lynch mob.

Hahn has been the GM for 6 years and the assistant GM for about a decade before that. KW has been a decision maker since he took over a 95 win team with what was the #1 ranked farm system in baseball in 2001. 

There is probably no other team in baseball that would have even considered for a second having them lead a rebuild. 

[Vote4Pedro]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Here’s my legit, unbiased guess on what’s happening.  I truly believe the Sox & Phillies are offering substantially more money than the Yankees.  All else being equal, Manny would love to go to New York and has told people as much, but is unlikely to leave big money on the table.  I’m guessing Dan Clark had heard the former from someone close to Machado and is simply exaggerating the certainty of him joining the Yankees because most people think it’s his likely landing spot and he has an opportunity to be the “first to report”.  I’m also going to guess offers are not truly final and that Manny is thinking through how much money he’s willing to pass on to play in New York.  I would imagine there is still some last minute gamemanship to take place.

Love the optimism man but what about all of the other reports? You continue to take shots at Dan Clark but there has been others as well that have said he’s all but a done deal to NYY?