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shago

Building a 2005 World Series Champion

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The cast:

Garland (via minor league trade from Cubs, grew up in Sox farm system)

Sweaty Freddy (trade deadline 2004 from Seattle)

The Count (trade deadline 2004 from NYY for Loaiza)

Buehrle (gifted from heaven to WS organization, homegrown)

Jenks (claimed off waivers in 2005 from LAA for $20k and a pack of Marlboros)

Pods (offseason trade in Dec ‘04 from Mil for Carlos Lee)

Tadihito (offseason ‘04 acquisition from Fukuoka Daiei)

JD (offseason ‘04 - 2yr, $10mm free agent)

Konks (via ‘98 trade from Reds for Mike Cameron)

Crazy Carl (traded back to Sox from MON for Jon Rauch et al Jul ‘04)

AJP (Jan ‘05 - 3yr $15mm free agent)

Rowand (amateur draft ‘98, homegrown)

Joe ‘MVP’ Crede (gifted from heaven to WS organization, homegrown)

Uribe (traded Dec ‘03 from COL for Aaron Miles and a resin bag)

— A couple good breaks, some timely mid-season moves in 2004 when they were ready to compete. A lot of homegrown, or long time organization talent, two mid-career free agent signings, not too splashy, $75mm payroll (13th in MLB in 2005), no massive free agents

Feels too early for the current squad to be doing free agent tuck-ins this offseason. Perhaps some deadline trades and focus on next year with an added year of maturity once we really know what we have / don’t with Eloy and the pitching staff?

Edited by shago

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2005 was an anomaly season, if not flat out lucky. Don’t get me wrong, I loved every second of it and not trying to devalue that WS, but that roster has nothing to do with how to build a team that can succeed long term. Not the model for what the present Sox should be doing at all.

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5 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

2005 was an anomaly season, if not flat out lucky. Don’t get me wrong, I loved every second of it and not trying to devalue that WS, but that roster has nothing to do with how to build a team that can succeed long term. Not the model for what the present Sox should be doing at all.

Yes, and the lack of success after 2005 shows how fortunate we were to have everything come together. It’s not a model that should ever have to be repeated again if we want to build a team capable of consistently winning (and reaching the playoffs)

Edited by Flash Tizzle

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59 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said:

Yes, and the lack of success after 2005 shows how fortunate we were to have everything come together. It’s not a model that should ever have to be repeated again if we want to build a team capable of consistently winning (and reaching the playoffs)

And, unfortunately, K. Williams received credit from some people for the World Series title and has been living off that unearned and undeserved praise for the last 13 years.

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8 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

And, unfortunately, K. Williams received credit from some people for the World Series title and has been living off that unearned and undeserved praise for the last 13 years.

How does KW not deserve credit for the 2005 team?  Some of you guys are taking your hate of the guy way too far.

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5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How does KW not deserve credit for the 2005 team?  Some of you guys are taking your hate of the guy way too far.

Don't hate the guy.  He  proved to be an incompetent GM when he was in that job for 12 years.  Look at his record of total busts of the #1 draft picks on his watch. 

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1 hour ago, shago said:

Feels too early for the current squad to be doing free agent tuck-ins this offseason. Perhaps some deadline trades and focus on next year with an added year of maturity once we really know what we have / don’t with Eloy and the pitching staff?

If you want the rebuild to succeed then you should want the Sox to be opportunistic.

The chances of guys like Harper and Machado (first tier players, who are just entering their prime as they become free agents) being free agents again down the road is slim to none. While it’s not in their control, the Sox have to jump in on this opportunity. I’d rather get one of these too early, than pass on them all together.

What’s so hard to understand?

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37 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

Don't hate the guy.  He  proved to be an incompetent GM when he was in that job for 12 years.  Look at his record of total busts of the #1 draft picks on his watch. 

I’m not defending KW’s tenure as GM, but let’s give credit where credit is due.  He made numerous moves that helped that 2005 team win a World Series, many of which were incredibly smart and/or forward thinking.  And he also deserves a ton of credit for going out and adding Thome & Vasquez to the 2006 team despite us coming up short.  For a period of time he was a shrewd talent evaluator whose aggressiveness & creativity were huge plusses, but he never let off the gas pedal and took too long to address the failures in amateur scouting & player development.  Not sure if that was ego, Reinsdorf’s unwavering loyalty & will to always go for it, or the game passing him by, but KW eventually let things turn south under his watch.  That doesn’t take away from some masterpiece GMing that led to the 2005 season.

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3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not defending KW’s tenure as GM, but let’s give credit where credit is due.  He made numerous moves that helped that 2005 team win a World Series, many of which were incredibly smart and/or forward thinking.  And he also deserves a ton of credit for going out and adding Thome & Vasquez to the 2006 team despite us coming up short.  For a period of time he was a shrewd talent evaluator whose aggressiveness & creativity were huge plusses, but he never let off the gas pedal and took too long to address the failures in amateur scouting & player development.  Not sure if that was ego, Reinsdorf’s unwavering loyalty & will to always go for it, or the game passing him by, but KW eventually let things turn south under his watch.  That doesn’t take away from some masterpiece GMing that led to the 2005 season.

Very fair analysis.  You're sticking with giving Williams credit for 2005 but realize that he was lacking in the latter part of his GM tenure.  You've swayed me on his role in the WS year, but I disagree on one thing---he was NEVER a shrewd talent evaluator (see his previously mentioned horrific record in the MLB Draft, especially the all-important first round). 

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3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not defending KW’s tenure as GM, but let’s give credit where credit is due.  He made numerous moves that helped that 2005 team win a World Series, many of which were incredibly smart and/or forward thinking.  And he also deserves a ton of credit for going out and adding Thome & Vasquez to the 2006 team despite us coming up short.  For a period of time he was a shrewd talent evaluator whose aggressiveness & creativity were huge plusses, but he never let off the gas pedal and took too long to address the failures in amateur scouting & player development.  Not sure if that was ego, Reinsdorf’s unwavering loyalty & will to always go for it, or the game passing him by, but KW eventually let things turn south under his watch.  That doesn’t take away from some masterpiece GMing that led to the 2005 season.

I'd actually love to have an honest conversation over drinks with KW about just that. KW definitely knows the game. I'd love to hear his candid opinion of what went wrong. 

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I think what rings true to me at KW is he was able to paper over his deficiencies in overseeing the amateur and international scouting operations with an incredible run of identifying talent that would continue to produce past age 30, and identify undervalued talent blocked in other systems.

But when his ability to find major league talent dipped and ability to acquire it was diminished it became a house of cards about to fall. Our core produced for quite a while and he fooled himself into thinking his strategy of investing everything into the pro level could be sustainable.

That said, he would have greatly benefitted from the updated draft and intl free agent pools. Jerry’s heterodoxy I’m sticking to draft slots before there was a cap was a major factor in KWs strategy.

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8 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

If you want the rebuild to succeed then you should want the Sox to be opportunistic.

The chances of guys like Harper and Machado (first tier players, who are just entering their prime as they become free agents) being free agents again down the road is slim to none. While it’s not in their control, the Sox have to jump in on this opportunity. I’d rather get one of these too early, than pass on them all together.

What’s so hard to understand?

I agree with the post except for the part where you said they are just entering their prime. Harper and Machado have already put up great seasons. Those have to be considered as "prime " years unless you expect them to get much better. Prime varies from player to player. In baseball prime was always considered after a few seasons in the bigs , gaining knowledge added to a physical peak.

But it's already 6-7 yrs. in the bigs. Their physical gifts and their added knowledge has already got them where they are now. I'm sure both have some very good years left but I'd bet against looking for career years but they are still capable of equaling some of those years.

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9 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

Don't hate the guy.  He  proved to be an incompetent GM when he was in that job for 12 years.  Look at his record of total busts of the #1 draft picks on his watch. 

Is draft picks the only way to judge a GM?  Seems like a silly criteria.  

 

The 2005 team was a perfect blueprint.  Homegrown talent, international signings, trades and free agents.  Players from each category were productive on that team.  That is exactly what is needed.

Edited by turnin' two

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12 hours ago, Blackout Friday said:

The responsibility of the draft lies primarily with the Scouting Director, so to judge a GM based on successes or failures in the draft doesn’t make a ton of sense. 

The GM doesn't get to pick their own scouting director?

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15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The GM doesn't get to pick their own scouting director?

I think there is reason to believe it’s much harder in a Reinsdorf lead organization.  For example, when KW finally fired Duane Shaffer it was after 35 years with the club.  And let’s be honest, his track record with first round was pretty damn bad.  Unfortunately, Jerry’s unwavering loyalty makes it that much harder to create an environment of accountability.

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31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The GM doesn't get to pick their own scouting director?

Right?  By that logic you can't blame Kenny/Hahn for the shortcomings of all their managers and players over the last decade either.

Edited by bschmaranz

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23 hours ago, shago said:

The cast:

Garland (via minor league trade from Cubs, grew up in Sox farm system)

Sweaty Freddy (trade deadline 2004 from Seattle)

The Count (trade deadline 2004 from NYY for Loaiza)

Buehrle (gifted from heaven to WS organization, homegrown)

Jenks (claimed off waivers in 2005 from LAA for $20k and a pack of Marlboros)

Pods (offseason trade in Dec ‘04 from Mil for Carlos Lee)

Tadihito (offseason ‘04 acquisition from Fukuoka Daiei)

JD (offseason ‘04 - 2yr, $10mm free agent)

Konks (via ‘98 trade from Reds for Mike Cameron)

Crazy Carl (traded back to Sox from MON for Jon Rauch et al Jul ‘04)

AJP (Jan ‘05 - 3yr $15mm free agent)

Rowand (amateur draft ‘98, homegrown)

Joe ‘MVP’ Crede (gifted from heaven to WS organization, homegrown)

Uribe (traded Dec ‘03 from COL for Aaron Miles and a resin bag)

— A couple good breaks, some timely mid-season moves in 2004 when they were ready to compete. A lot of homegrown, or long time organization talent, two mid-career free agent signings, not too splashy, $75mm payroll (13th in MLB in 2005), no massive free agents

Feels too early for the current squad to be doing free agent tuck-ins this offseason. Perhaps some deadline trades and focus on next year with an added year of maturity once we really know what we have / don’t with Eloy and the pitching staff?

I wish you used their names instead of your own made up knicknames.. BOO

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25 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think there is reason to believe it’s much harder in a Reinsdorf lead organization.  For example, when KW finally fired Duane Shaffer it was after 35 years with the club.  And let’s be honest, his track record with first round was pretty damn bad.  Unfortunately, Jerry’s unwavering loyalty makes it that much harder to create an environment of accountability.

If the GM is the 2nd in command and he just puts up with an environment that is as toxic as the one you describe rather than either fixing it or leaving, then the GM is complicit in my eyes. 

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29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If the GM is the 2nd in command and he just puts up with an environment that is as toxic as the one you describe rather than either fixing it or leaving, then the GM is complicit in my eyes. 

That loyalty goes both ways though as evident by Hahn & KW still being around despite a decade of poor results.  And maybe these guys feel a sense of loyalty to Jerry because of that.  Also, I’m not sure leaving is so easy when you’re talking about a grand total of 30 to 60 GM / President type roles, especially if you feel comfortable where you’re at and don’t have to move your family.

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That was a team with players having standout years and often that's how teams win it.   You don't see back to back champions anymore. In 2006 that was a tough division and 90 games didn't get you a post season bid.

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