fathom Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Two things....first, did Nightengale really say that one of the incentives was tied to attendance? Also, this tweet is so true: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 24 minutes ago, fathom said: They literally had the answer to the test question all along (10/300), yet they kept trying to convince the teacher the answer wasn’t correct. I just don’t get it. Yesterday I was stunned, today I’m just pissed and can’t believe members of the media are sticking up for them. This is the perfect summary. And I'm getting more mad as either people that don't know the white sox or sunshinehoarders are trying to retcon the past acting like the sox haven't head nodded to going after harper/machado since they first traded sale. "The money will be there" "We are proving we are changing how we operate" etc. But no, they didn't guarantee. They just strongly implied for years, had a perfect opportunity and failed when it went...pretty much how we all expected! Had he signed for 10 / 400 you lick your wounds and say damn. But 10 for 300 was really likely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 50 minutes ago, Harper2Sox said: You have absolutely zero proof that this is about JR’s ego or his cheapness or any other specific reason. I could just as easily argue the “Sox are too cheap” narrative. No I don't have proof. None of us has any proof. Both of our scenarios could be true. It just makes no sense why they would offer the fairly easily attainable incentives to pay him more than what SD offered. True it was a more team friendly deal but it seems like a small difference when they have been working on it for so long. It all comes down to the ego in my view. Of course, it could be wrong but it makes the most sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakes Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, ptatc said: This is why I keep going back to JRs ego. They knew what the agent wanted but were still trying to get the player without meeting the agents demands. It was a losing plan from the beginning. However they convinced themselves it was going to work because no other team was really in it until SD came along. They over played their hand because of JRs restrcitions. I think it's worse than this. If the no opt outs part is true, they were never really at the table. They were pawns. In today's contract environment, not considering opt outs is a non starter. This org is so out of touch, they don't even realize they are the fish at the table. At that point it was just media fodder to keep their name in the news cycle to grasp on to the slightest bit of relevancy. It's really hard to support this organization anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, bmags said: This is the perfect summary. And I'm getting more mad as either people that don't know the white sox or sunshinehoarders are trying to retcon the past acting like the sox haven't head nodded to going after harper/machado since they first traded sale. "The money will be there" "We are proving we are changing how we operate" etc. But no, they didn't guarantee. They just strongly implied for years, had a perfect opportunity and failed when it went...pretty much how we all expected! Had he signed for 10 / 400 you lick your wounds and say damn. But 10 for 300 was really likely! I agree. There is no reason why at this low of a price they shouldn't have done it. It has set back the rebuild for no good reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, ptatc said: They could not maneuver around the playing time easily. With the antagonist relationship the union and owners have, the union would be aall over that quickly. As I stated in another post, JR is referred to here as too loyal as a fault. If that's true, he wouldn't allow something like that to happen. As far as being a trainer, there are plenty of p,layers who can get 550 at bat at age 34 and 35 which would be the last years of the deal. He would be betting on himself a little but if he does it in just one of the years he would be right there. Again, I'm not saying I would take the Sox deal, I wouldn't. But the deal as not about the overall money. It was about an agent and an owner pissing about who can claim the highest free agent deal ever. What about the 5-year opt out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, shakes said: I think it's worse than this. If the no opt outs part is true, they were never really at the table. They were pawns. In today's contract environment, not considering opt outs is a non starter. This org is so out of touch, they don't even realize they are the fish at the table. At that point it was just media fodder to keep their name in the news cycle to grasp on to the slightest bit of relevancy. It's really hard to support this organization anymore. I agree. The opt outs could be more of a factor as well. Similar money, the opt outs to make a big difference as well. This may take on even more importance if the CBA changes in a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, ptatc said: I agree. There is no reason why at this low of a price they shouldn't have done it. It has set back the rebuild for no good reason. Especially if youre willing to go 8/250 and potentially 10/325. Not to mention the money they spent on his friends. Im not sure if it was ego, they got too cute or they were just in over their heads. Maybe all 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, StrangeSox said: What about the 5-year opt out? I agree that makes a difference as well. By why dont the Sox offer them? Because JR doesn't want them? Could be his stubbornness again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Soxbadger said: Especially if youre willing to go 8/250 and potentially 10/325. Not to mention the money they spent on his friends. Im not sure if it was ego, they got too cute or they were just in over their heads. Maybe all 3. If they really were shocked at the news yesterday and really do think their offer was equal or better, well, it shows just how incompetent they really are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, StrangeSox said: If they really were shocked at the news yesterday and really do think their offer was equal or better, well, it shows just how incompetent they really are. Hard to be good at negotiating $300mil deals when youve never negotiated a $100mil deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Soxbadger said: Especially if youre willing to go 8/250 and potentially 10/325. Not to mention the money they spent on his friends. Im not sure if it was ego, they got too cute or they were just in over their heads. Maybe all 3. Could be all of them, just think it was simply not wanting to pay the money. There is no rational reason to stick to the 300 number unless it was just an idea stuck in JRs brain. I will not pay 300, but I will give him the possibility to make 325. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ptatc said: I agree that makes a difference as well. By why dont the Sox offer them? Because JR doesn't want them? Could be his stubbornness again. So if this is the current state of the free agent market for top free agents/future Hall of Famers (10-years, $300+ million, with an opt-out), is it even about stubbornness anymore or is it just cheapness? If you don’t offer these type of deals, you aren’t getting the player, period. So are the Sox ultimately just trying to show the fans that they tried, when they truly have no intentions of signing the player for the type of contract that is expected these days? Edited February 20, 2019 by Harper2Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxman72 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Listening to Levine defend the organization pissed me off even more this morning. Anyone that argues about the back end of Manny's 10 year deal is ignorant. Manny is not Cano or Pujols. He is a 26 year old in the prime of his career. Also, you sacrifice the back end of the contract to get the player, bad knees and all. The Giants are buried with bad contracts, but they won THREE World Series Championships. I think the Giants are okay with their current position and will dig out. Does it always work out, no, but the reward greatly outweighs the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: I agree that makes a difference as well. By why dont the Sox offer them? Because JR doesn't want them? Could be his stubbornness again. Maybe, but it more goes back to your first statement that you don't think this had anything to do with money and was more about headlines. The opt-out offers Machado potentially huge value in another 5 years. More value than the potential performance incentives in the White Sox offer. So the Sox didn't offer the most overall potential value, and this really was about the money. Maybe the Sox couldn't offer the most value because of Reinsdorf's ego, but that still doesn't make the original statement true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saufley Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 21 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said: The Sox really fucked up the opportunity of a lifetime. I still can't believe this. I hope Reinsdorf, Hahn and Williams are feeling as lousy today as I am! But, I'm pretty sure they aren't! Inept! Totally inept, is this trio! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Harper2Sox said: So if this is the current state of the free agent market for top free agents/future Hall of Famers (10-years, $300+ million, with an opt-out), is it even about stubbornness anymore or is it just cheapness? If you don’t offer these type of deals, you aren’t getting the player, period. So are the Sox ultimately just trying to show the fans that they tried, when they truly have no intentions of signing the player for the type of contract that is expected these days? Which is why they're better off just selling the team if they're going to be this stubborn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, fathom said: Which is why they're better off just selling the team if they're going to be this stubborn. Theres that, but also just admitting that they should be run more more like the As, Rays and Indians than the Cubs. I really think they thought they'd be the cubs adding payroll, maybe not to the extent, but going after the big guys. But it's clearly not possible with the inconsistently applied constraints. So then they need to look at who can provide a world class player development, player evaluation and scouting system because they are no where close to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said: The Sox really fucked up the opportunity of a lifetime. I still can't believe this. Honestly, nothing should shock us at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxman72 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, fathom said: Two things....first, did Nightengale really say that one of the incentives was tied to attendance? Also, this tweet is so true: Yes, Nightengale, live this morning on MLB Network, said that the Sox are OUT on Harper and that the team has not spoken to Boras or Harper since early December. Don't know why that matters, but okay...... Nightengale also did say that there was an incentive in the Sox contract about attendance. Also, agree, that tweet is spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, bmags said: Theres that, but also just admitting that they should be run more more like the As, Rays and Indians than the Cubs. I really think they thought they'd be the cubs adding payroll, maybe not to the extent, but going after the big guys. But it's clearly not possible with the inconsistently applied constraints. So then they need to look at who can provide a world class player development, player evaluation and scouting system because they are no where close to that. They don't have to be run like that though. The financial constraints are put on by Jerry and Jerry alone. He won't compete with the San Diego fucking Padres financially and that is disgraceful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 27 minutes ago, mqr said: The only thing that would make feel better is if Machado absolutely craters, but that won’t reinstill any kind of faith in the team I thought that, but regardless if Manny gets fat and awful now, signing him would have been the perfect addition to the rebuild. They simply were not aggressive enough and now are made to look like fools for coming up short. There are no prizes for second place in free agency. They are putting tremendous pressure on our prospects to carry the MLB team in the future with little support around them. Winning does not happen by accident, teams need to spend in order to get results. Not every signing will work out, but I can't fault an organization for trying their best. The Padres clearly wanted Machado more, and got their guy. Giving 10 years to ANY player will almost always turn out to be a mistake, but in this instance the Sox absolutely should have done it. The resulting PR nightmare is not one that the fanbase will soon forget. The narrative, unfair or not, of the organization being cheap will persist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, Harper2Sox said: So if this is the current state of the free agent market for top free agents/future Hall of Famers (10-years, $300+ million, with an opt-out), is it even about stubbornness anymore or is it just cheapness? If you don’t offer these type of deals, you aren’t getting the player, period. So are the Sox ultimately just trying to show the fans that they tried, when they truly have no intentions of signing the player for the type of contract that is expected these days? The other point that needs continually stressed is that this is a commentary on the General Manager also. If ownership sets limits that are going to hurt the franchise, limits that are arbitrary and capricious like "no opt outs" and "must stay below $275", the general manager's job is literally to work with ownership to get done what he needs to get done. If the limits are dumb like those are, he needs to work with ownership to make them understand that the market does not work this way. He needs to work with ownership to help them see how mandatory that player is to fit into his plan. He may need to bargain with ownership - fine no opt outs but ownership you need to be prepared to go to $350 million guaranteed to make up for it, or fine $300 million guaranteed and I'll keep the payroll below $70 million this year to make up for it by letting Abreu go. Ownership then will go "you can't let go of abreu" or "we can't go that high" and the general manager will negotiate with ownership - this player is more important to my world series teams than Abreu is in 2019 so I will let Abreu go and it's worth it" and they come to some sort of arrangement. Ownership won't be happy about spending money or breaking records, but they will be happy in 2 years with a playoff run. You can read a story of how a competent general manager made this happen in today's press articles, because this is literally what Preller did. Identified a player they could use, available at a good price, ownership did not want to commit that money, and he worked with ownership to make it happen. That story is in print right now, and that's how a competent general manager handles these sort of restrictions from ownership. So yes, complain about Jerry being cheap, it's part of the story. But an effective general manager can still operate a well run business with those restrictions. We do not have that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, mqr said: They don't have to be run like that though. The financial constraints are put on by Jerry and Jerry alone. He won't compete with the San Diego fucking Padres financially and that is disgraceful. No, they don't have to, but if selling isn't an option, then it will allow them to be as competitive as they want without worrying about paying players adequately which sounds worse than losing apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The other point that needs continually stressed is that this is a commentary on the General Manager also. If ownership sets limits that are going to hurt the franchise, limits that are arbitrary and capricious like "no opt outs" and "must stay below $275", the general manager's job is literally to work with ownership to get done what he needs to get done. If the limits are dumb like those are, he needs to work with ownership to make them understand that the market does not work this way. He needs to work with ownership to help them see how mandatory that player is to fit into his plan. He may need to bargain with ownership - fine no opt outs but ownership you need to be prepared to go to $350 million guaranteed to make up for it, or fine $300 million guaranteed and I'll keep the payroll below $70 million this year to make up for it by letting Abreu go. Ownership then will go "you can't let go of abreu" or "we can't go that high" and the general manager will negotiate with ownership - this player is more important to my world series teams than Abreu is in 2019 so I will let Abreu go and it's worth it" and they come to some sort of arrangement. Ownership won't be happy about spending money or breaking records, but they will be happy in 2 years with a playoff run. You can read a story of how a competent general manager made this happen in today's press articles, because this is literally what Preller did. Identified a player they could use, available at a good price, ownership did not want to commit that money, and he worked with ownership to make it happen. That story is in print right now, and that's how a competent general manager handles these sort of restrictions from ownership. Kenny and Hahn did try, I'm not going to deny that. Jerry/Kenny/Hahn all thought their offer was the best on the table and they would get Machado largely on their own terms. The lack of urgency to realize the Padres could leapfrog them did not occur, and they are left with a mess on their hands. Sticker price of 10/300 was known all along, and it shouldn't be a shock that it was met on deal day Edited February 20, 2019 by steveno89 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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