LittleHurt05 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Edgar Martinez won a Silver Slugger at age 40 in one of dirtiest clubhouses known in the Steroid Era, yet many voters claim that "roiders" should not make the HOF. LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said: Halladay was a much more dominant pitcher and was more of a workhorse than Moose was. Moose just had a longer and more durable career. That was the perception, but the WHIPs and K rates were basically identical and Mussina played only 2 more years (but a lot more innings). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Ultimately, how you feel about Bonds (and PEDs in general) is probably tied to your view of what the Hall of Fame should be. If you think it should be a shrine to the very best elements of the game, designed to evangelize and propagandize the sport among the public, then I can see how you might not want its seedier elements involved. This falls flat, for me, because baseball (and sport in general) has always been intertwined with the complexities and grey areas of our dumb species. Gambling, cheating, substance abuse, racism, even violence all are deeply rooted in the history of baseball. If, like me, you see the Hall as a museum of baseball, highlighting both the transformations and the outstanding performances of any particular era, it becomes impossible not to include Bonds and Clemens, two of the best players of all time. Even if one insists on asterisks or footnotes, they absolutely belong, and its blatant revisionism to keep them out. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Also, if we're talking peak vs. career arguments... Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschmaranz Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Garland and Freddy got screwed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 24 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said: Edgar Martinez won a Silver Slugger at age 40 in one of dirtiest clubhouses known in the Steroid Era, yet many voters claim that "roiders" should not make the HOF. LOL Mussina won 20 games in his final season at age 39, his highest total of his career. Is there suspicion there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hurtin Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I'm so happy Schilling didn't get in. Even more so after browsing Twitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, bmags said: Glad Halliday made it. He is going to be a good realistic modern comp for today’s starting pitchers. I remember watching hi. in spring training in Dunedin before his rookie year. Total beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I’m just glad we can stop gemming and hawing about the first unanimous HOFer because it was a dumb thing to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 40 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said: Mussina won 20 games in his final season at age 39, his highest total of his career. Is there suspicion there? Not really, but that's not much of a comparable situation given the year they took place, the players history and the team involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) I will be the guy to say it. A few years ago everybody was angry over Hoffman getting in, stating a closer or any relief pitcher should never be in the hall. I am not saying Rivera was NOT deserving, he definitely was, but I love the hypocrisy in this sport. If Rivera was on the Reds for his whole career he would not have gotten in on the first ballot, let alone an unanimous vote. Jeter will be the second one to be unanimous, id bet my left nut on that. Edited January 23, 2019 by reiks12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 51 minutes ago, LittleHurt05 said: Not really, but that's not much of a comparable situation given the year they took place, the players history and the team involved. He was teammates with Arod, Giambi, Melky, Clemens, Pettitte, Ivan Rodriguez, Cano, Sheffield, probably more proven or suspected users. Edited January 23, 2019 by Leonard Zelig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, GreenSox said: I'm surprised Halladay is getting that high vote %; he really wasn't better than Mussina and Mussina struggled to get in. Glad to see those 4 make it. Overall career numbers, no way. Period of extended dominance (see Johan Santana, but longer)...checks all the boxes that he was one of the best pitchers of his generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Leonard Zelig said: Mussina won 20 games in his final season at age 39, his highest total of his career. Is there suspicion there? Why, because of Pettite? Or his age? That dude was one of the most cerebral baseball players of all-time, Stanford education, NYT crossword puzzle solver, would be pretty shocked that he put knowingly dangerous substances into his body (he certainly didn't gain bulk or mass). Edited January 23, 2019 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Why, because of Pettite? Or his age? That dude was one of the most cerebral baseball players of all-time, Stanford education, NYT crossword puzzle solver, would be pretty shocked that he put knowingly dangerous substances into his body (he certainly didn't gain bulk or mass). I never really thought about him being a user before. But if one player is being questioned because of performance at a particular age and because of his dirty teammates, than I don't see why another wouldn't. He won 20 games and led the league in games started in his age 39 season. As far as being one of the most cerebral players of all time, I don't know what you are talking about. How do you quantify cerebral use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Overall career numbers, no way. Period of extended dominance (see Johan Santana, but longer)...checks all the boxes that he was one of the best pitchers of his generation. This is why it’s important Halladay got in so easy. His overall numbers are on the low end of HOF pitchers, but for the new era of how pitchers are used they will certainly be in the safe, if not high, end of hall of fame pitchers moving forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, LittleHurt05 said: Edgar Martinez won a Silver Slugger at age 40 in one of dirtiest clubhouses known in the Steroid Era, yet many voters claim that "roiders" should not make the HOF. LOL Just like we don’t lock up convicted murders because some don’t get caught...oh wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, Leonard Zelig said: I never really thought about him being a user before. But if one player is being questioned because of performance at a particular age and because of his dirty teammates, than I don't see why another wouldn't. He won 20 games and led the league in games started in his age 39 season. As far as being one of the most cerebral players of all time, I don't know what you are talking about. How do you quantify cerebral use? "He was the ultimate pitcher. You'd sit there and watch him and see him almost invent pitches as he went along. He had a hand that could make baseballs do exactly what he wanted them to do. And you'd go, 'Wait a second, did he just get his cutter to do that, on that count? Did he just throw a batting-practice fastball and get a guy to roll over a ground ball to the second baseman?' "Somehow he was able to manipulate not just the ball, but the strike zone, too. No matter how much you scouted him, he would always find a way to show you something different, with his fastball or his cutter or his changeup. Pitchers will understand what I'm saying: Mike would create his own zone. I swear, I'd watch him sometimes and think he was like a conductor out there, just with earplugs in, impervious to whatever noise was going on around him. The only way I can put it is that he didn't hear the music of the game as much as feel it. He had that kind of feeling for throwing a baseball. "There have been a lot of smart pitchers. And a lot of high-IQ pitchers. But there's a difference between that and being bright. Mike Mussina on a pitcher's mound was just incredibly bright. I'll tell you something else: Big market, small market, it never mattered to him. He just didn't care. Just give him the ball." http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/262082484/mike-mussina-baseball-hall-of-fame-case-mlb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 hours ago, yesterday333 said: My opinion on Bonds is, if you don't think youre good enough to not cheat, why should I think youre good enough. Let the cheaters get in posthumously. Vote Shoeless Joe instead if it was allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox1917 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Schilling continuing to get screwed by the writers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, JoshPR said: Fred mcgriff should be in. Dude played clean Yea man. As a kid, it seemed like every pack of baseball cards I ever opened had a Fred Mcgriff in it. My 9 sleeve binder thing always had Mccgriff on top of mcgriff next to more mcgriffs on top of mcgriffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Leonard Zelig said: He was teammates with Arod, Giambi, Melky, Clemens, Pettitte, Ivan Rodriguez, Cano, Sheffield, probably more proven or suspected users. Ok, fine, you convinced me, add Mussina to the suspected PED list. In reality, anybody who played in the steroid era is fair game thanks to Bud Selig. It's just unfortunate that the HOF has been ruined by voters who choose their steroid candidates by personality off the field. Unless they shock us all and dont vote David Ortiz in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 What I still don't get is the separation between Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. Why is Sammy 50 percent points behind them? If those 2 are HOF material, why isn't Sammy? Full disclosure I would be thrilled if none gets in, but more curious about why the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: What I still don't get is the separation between Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. Why is Sammy 50 percent points behind them? If those 2 are HOF material, why isn't Sammy? Full disclosure I would be thrilled if none gets in, but more curious about why the difference. Because with Bonds and Clemens we're talking about arguably the best position player and pitcher of all time. Sosa on the other hand would be on the lower end of Hall of Famers with his numbers, so it's easy to argue that without steroids he wouldn't be close to HOF caliber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: What I still don't get is the separation between Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. Why is Sammy 50 percent points behind them? If those 2 are HOF material, why isn't Sammy? Full disclosure I would be thrilled if none gets in, but more curious about why the difference. Bonds:164.4 fWAR (2nd all time behind Ruth) Clemens: 133.7 fWAR (most all time for pitchers) Sosa: 60.1 fWAR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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