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There is no hope for the Chicago White Sox (the thread?)

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51 minutes ago, bmags said:

I did a 2020 big board. It's not that dire, there is easily a way out.

But you need the front office to execute on some things really well, and thats why it sucks for them to show off how they aren't great at executing things.

 

But, are you actually allowing anyone to see your Big Board?

Edited by caulfield12

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Love how some just wanna dump moncada.... What are they gonna say bout eloy when he struggles

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It's been more than two years now since Moncada looked like the next "Robinson Cano" or whatever. He wasn't great in Charlotte, he wasn't great in 2017, he got worse last season. It's not good. I wish it were good but it's not. Same with Lopez and Giolito, both of them look actually even worse. I wish like crazy just one of these prospects of theirs would look even decent but so far it's been universally terrible. Compare that to the other rebuilds around baseball...it's actually very alarming.

Kopech did look the part but, well, he's gone now. That's the risk they took accepting a deal that hinged largely on a pitcher of his type making it.

Edited by KiwiSox
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This is a big year for Moncada IMO. He should be much improved if he's elite. He had a year to digest all those at bats and should adjust to those bad calls by the umps and either swing more or start getting the benefit of the doubt. I also think Eloy is elite. I still like Timmy a lot. I'm hopeful on some of that young pitching and I'll trust the scouts on Madrigal. I also still am hopeful on Robert. Is there reason to be down on him??

 

GO SOX!

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Just now, greg775 said:

This is a big year for Moncada IMO. He should be much improved if he's elite. He had a year to digest all those at bats and should adjust to those bad calls by the umps and either swing more or start getting the benefit of the doubt. I also think Eloy is elite. I still like Timmy a lot. I'm hopeful on some of that young pitching and I'll trust the scouts on Madrigal. I also still am hopeful on Robert. Is there reason to be down on him??

 

GO SOX!

Only whether or not he can stay healthy. When he's been healthy he's looked like a damn baseball deity, but he missed more than 1/2 of last season and played hurt some.

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1 minute ago, greg775 said:

This is a big year for Moncada IMO. He should be much improved if he's elite. He had a year to digest all those at bats and should adjust to those bad calls by the umps and either swing more or start getting the benefit of the doubt. I also think Eloy is elite. I still like Timmy a lot. I'm hopeful on some of that young pitching and I'll trust the scouts on Madrigal. I also still am hopeful on Robert. Is there reason to be down on him??

 

GO SOX!

Whoa. This is the most positive I've ever seen you about the youngsters.

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4 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

Whoa. This is the most positive I've ever seen you about the youngsters.

I've always been fine with the youngsters. Big year for Timmy and Moncada. I think both have had a ton of MLB at bats and it's time. No reason to not believe the Eloy hype. I'm expecting Dave Winfield. True I wasn't thrilled of Madrigal but I'll trust the scouts til proven otherwise. And I've had nothing against Robert, even Rutherford and our MLB catchers til shown otherwise. I guess I'll predict Burger will be a bust. I'm hopeful on the young pitching. It's just that my anger over other things usually erases/supercedes any optimism I express. I really wish we'd dump Jay and Alonso and I wouldn't be as mad/depressed entering the season as I am now.

Edited by greg775
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58 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

I like baseball 

How did you like the 100 instances of “baseball” last summer where the Sox’ opponent scored more runs than they did?

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1 hour ago, Fan O'Faust said:

How did you like the 100 instances of “baseball” last summer where the Sox’ opponent scored more runs than they did?

Nobody likes to lose but I support the Sox and enjoy the game of baseball. I have been a fan of this team since 1959 so win or lose my loyalty isn’t going to change 

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On 3/1/2019 at 10:41 AM, mqr said:

Moncada was more highly regarded that Eloy ever has been, what, 12 months ago? I understand the consternation, but come on.

Dude, seriously? Is this all that you have? WTF planet are you living on? I get it. A bunch of people who use criteria that none of us casual fans will ever understand arbitrarily "rank" players and give them "grades". Why do people like you take these things as the word of God? I have seen Moncada for a full season and part of another. I have seen nothing that makes me believe that this guy is an "elite" talent. Why are you still keeping the party line that this kid is a future HOF player just because a bunch of stat geeks looked at a spreadsheet, saw his "grades", and ranked him an "elite prospect"? When the Red Sox offered him instead of Benitiendi, that should have told you how they felt about those two guys. One was expendable. One was a guy they wanted to keep for the future.

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On 3/1/2019 at 10:58 AM, mqr said:

4 months ago I had zero expectations that Manny or Harper would ever in a million years come here to play, I still felt pretty good about where the Sox sat. Those expectations changed. 

I still think there's enough talent to capitalize on the Indians window closing but I now feel uneasy, not because of the players in the system, but the absolute boobery put on display these last few weeks. 

I think that it is a pipe dream to expect the White Sox to rise from the ashes with only prospects developing. Looking at the Cubs and Astros alone, neither of them win with singing the right veterans to supplement their young players. Injuries happen. Expectations are not met. Guys flame out after early sparks. Too many names to count in the annals of the game to even try listing them.

Players like Machado and Harper rarely make it to the market. Guys with proven track records of elite production who are are so young that lengthy, expensive contracts are justifiable. Guys who make it to that market when all of the large market teams are virtually capped out and cannot offer a contract that smaller market teams can outbid them for. The White Sox make shrewd signings of Abreu and Robert in similar circumstances. It was gravely disappointing to most of our passionate fanbase that we did not make the commitment to one of them. It is quite frankly inexcusable that a deal was not closed with one of them. There is no way to sugar coat that or explain it away.

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On 3/1/2019 at 11:43 AM, NWINFan said:

There is room for optimism, but I don't think anyone truly knows when the team will turn things around or how good they will really be. We need to see prospects get some major league playing time before making any real judgements.  I am hopeful but skeptical at the same time. I don't see any point in getting manic depressive, yet I have doubts, and I think plenty of fans should have doubts.

So far, the early returns are not good.

Anderson: showed a little early, but nothing that made me expect an All-Star at SS. Too many errors, not enough OBP, not enough overall run production. Yet, they gave him a decent contract and traded away Tatis Jr. because they believed in him that much. Hopefully, that belief does not haunt the franchise. Personally, I see nothing that mandates that Anderson is our SS for the next 15 years, but hopefully the kid proves me wrong and turns things around in the field and at the plate. Just being "athletic" does not work for me when you have fundamentally sound players who can play the position much better.

Moncada: I see it with the naked eye. I see the same stuff that talent scouts saw in guys like Alex Rios and Jurickson Profar. At the end of the day, you have to be able to play the game. It is not about being "athletic" or being able to pound a belt high fast ball. It is not about having good exit velocity on balls you actually hit. You need to make plays. With the glove. At the plate. On the basepath. It comes down to "production". It is not about "upside".

Giolito: You see it in spurts. Yet, consistency is what makes a major leaguer. Guy needs to start doing it consistently.

Lopez: Clearly ahead of Giolito. Looks like he could be a back of the rotation guy.

Way too many injuries in our better prospects. Way too much inconsistency in other highly thought of players. Then, we have a guy like Luis Gonzalez. Kid is outproducing every OF prospect not named Jimenez by a wide margin. Yet, these talent "evaluators" grade him lower than guys like Basabe or Adolfo for some odd reason. Since the tea leaves seem to imply that the White Sox value guys like Basabe and Adolfo over Gonzalez (not even mentioning Robert who also is not producing in the field or with the bat like Gonzalez; not even mentioning Rutherford who also out produced Basabe and Adolfo by a noticeable margin), the White Sox will probably (stupidly) trade away Gonzalez and watch him become a star somewhere else (see Tatis Jr) because they valued the "upside" of Basabe and Adolfo over the "production" of Gonzalez.

Edited by YouGottaBeBleepingMe

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7 minutes ago, YouGottaBeBleepingMe said:

So far, the early returns are not good.

Anderson: showed a little early, but nothing that made me expect an All-Star at SS. Too many errors, not enough OBP, not enough overall run production. Yet, they gave him a decent contract and traded away Tatis Jr. because they believed in him that much. Hopefully, that belief does not haunt the franchise. Personally, I see nothing that mandates that Anderson is our SS for the next 15 years, but hopefully the kid proves me wrong and turns things around in the field and at the plate. Just being "athletic" does not work for me when you have fundamentally sound players who can play the position much better.

Moncada: I see it with the naked eye. I see the same stuff that talent scouts saw in guys like Alex Rios and Jurickson Profar. At the end of the day, you have to be able to play the game. It is not about being "athletic" or being able to pound a belt high fast ball. It is not about having good exit velocity on balls you actually hit. You need to make plays. With the glove. At the plate. On the basepath. It comes down to "production". It is not about "upside".

Giolito: You see it in spurts. Yet, consistency is what makes a major leaguer. Guy needs to start doing it consistently.

Lopez: Clearly ahead of Giolito. Looks like he could be a back of the rotation guy.

Way too many injuries in our better prospects. Way too much inconsistency in other highly thought of players. Then, we have a guy like Luis Gonzalez. Kid is outproducing most of our outfield prospects. Yet, these talent "evaluators" grade him lower than guys like Basabe or Adolfo for some odd reason. Since the tea leaves seem to imply that the White Sox value guys like Basabe and Adolfo over Gonzalez (not even mentioning Robert who also is not producing in the field or with the bat like Gonzalez; not even mentioning Rutherford who also out produced Basabe and Adolfo by a noticeable margin), the White Sox will probably (stupidly) trade away Gonzalez and watch him become a star somewhere else (see Tatis Jr) because they valued the "upside" of Basabe and Adolfo over the "production" of Gonzalez.

Production in the minors means nothing. You can't start valuing production over upside until you get to the major league level. There are plenty of cases of players who were great at AA and AAA that couldn't hack it in the Majors. Your criticisms aren't wrong though. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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On 3/1/2019 at 7:04 PM, greg775 said:

This is a big year for Moncada IMO. He should be much improved if he's elite. He had a year to digest all those at bats and should adjust to those bad calls by the umps and either swing more or start getting the benefit of the doubt. I also think Eloy is elite. I still like Timmy a lot. I'm hopeful on some of that young pitching and I'll trust the scouts on Madrigal. I also still am hopeful on Robert. Is there reason to be down on him??

 

GO SOX!

You will "trust the scout on Madrigal"? WTF? The kid is a baseball player. The kid is a winner. Maybe the kid is a hair slower than say Anderson or Moncada. Who gives a s***? He will make every routine play that guys like Anderson and Moncada struggle with half of the time. He will make the tougher play most of the time too. He makes contact. He gets on base. Every championship team has guys like him on it roster. Excluding Jimenez who has just mashed at every stop in the minors, Madrigal is the one prospect of ours that I have zero concern about. Madrigal is so good with the glove that I would move Anderson to second base for him.

Edited by YouGottaBeBleepingMe
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4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Production in the minors means nothing. You can't start valuing production over upside until you get to the major league level. There are plenty of cases of players who were great at AA and AAA that couldn't hack it in the Majors. Your criticisms aren't wrong though. 

Please go check Luis Gonzalez's college stats and get back to me. If you are willing to disregard his entire body of work from college through his first full year in the White Sox Minor League system because some "scout" values the "athleticism" of some guy who has hit .240 or less with consistency for 3 years or more years running now, I have nothing to respond to you or the "scout" with.

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12 minutes ago, YouGottaBeBleepingMe said:

Please go check Luis Gonzalez's college stats and get back to me. If you are willing to disregard his entire body of work from college through his first full year in the White Sox Minor League system because some "scout" values the "athleticism" of some guy who has hit .240 or less with consistency for 3 years or more years running now, I have nothing to respond to you or the "scout" with.

He's also older for his league so we'll have to see. Scouts exist for a reason, and that is to identify talent that will play up in the majors. I take all minor league stats with a massive grain of salt unless the guy is universally lauded by scouts. Again, the only place production over talent matters is in the major leagues. Sometimes, players like Luis Gonzalez end up being good MLB players. But more often than not, they don't. Gonzalez is 23 and hasn't had time in AA yet. Let's let him go play in the upper minors before making any grand declarations. Scouts know what  a major league player looks like, and apparently they aren't impressed with Gonzalez. I'll take their word for it. The gap between AAA and MLB is HUGE. Go look at Avi Garcia's stats in AAA in 2013 and what he did in the majors. That is my argument against yours. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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7 minutes ago, YouGottaBeBleepingMe said:

Please go check Luis Gonzalez's college stats and get back to me. If you are willing to disregard his entire body of work from college through his first full year in the White Sox Minor League system because some "scout" values the "athleticism" of some guy who has hit .240 or less with consistency for 3 years or more years running now, I have nothing to respond to you or the "scout" with.

Jeremy Reed must've been a god in your eyes then back in the day.

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1 minute ago, SoxAce said:

Jeremy Reed must've been a god in your eyes then back in the day.

Exactly. 

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13 minutes ago, YouGottaBeBleepingMe said:

So far, the early returns are not good.

Anderson: showed a little early, but nothing that made me expect an All-Star at SS. Too many errors, not enough OBP, not enough overall run production. Yet, they gave him a decent contract and traded away Tatis Jr. because they believed in him that much. Hopefully, that belief does not haunt the franchise. Personally, I see nothing that mandates that Anderson is our SS for the next 15 years, but hopefully the kid proves me wrong and turns things around in the field and at the plate. Just being "athletic" does not work for me when you have fundamentally sound players who can play the position much better.

Moncada: I see it with the naked eye. I see the same stuff that talent scouts saw in guys like Alex Rios and Jurickson Profar. At the end of the day, you have to be able to play the game. It is not about being "athletic" or being able to pound a belt high fast ball. It is not about having good exit velocity on balls you actually hit. You need to make plays. With the glove. At the plate. On the basepath. It comes down to "production". It is not about "upside".

Giolito: You see it in spurts. Yet, consistency is what makes a major leaguer. Guy needs to start doing it consistently.

Lopez: Clearly ahead of Giolito. Looks like he could be a back of the rotation guy.

Way too many injuries in our better prospects. Way too much inconsistency in other highly thought of players. Then, we have a guy like Luis Gonzalez. Kid is outproducing every OF prospect not named Jimenez by a wide margin. Yet, these talent "evaluators" grade him lower than guys like Basabe or Adolfo for some odd reason. Since the tea leaves seem to imply that the White Sox value guys like Basabe and Adolfo over Gonzalez (not even mentioning Robert who also is not producing in the field or with the bat like Gonzalez; not even mentioning Rutherford who also out produced Basabe and Adolfo by a noticeable margin), the White Sox will probably (stupidly) trade away Gonzalez and watch him become a star somewhere else (see Tatis Jr) because they valued the "upside" of Basabe and Adolfo over the "production" of Gonzalez.

1. I agree Anderson’s ceiling is limited due to a lack of plate discipline, but his defense is much better than you give him credit for.  I think he ultimately settles in as a 2.5 to 3 win player and given his contract that’s fine.  Also,  Tatis had nothing to do with Anderson.

2. I think me and you are watching completely different players when it comes to Moncada.  If the dude can be a little bit more aggressive in his approach he’s an easy 3 to 4 win player to me with the upside for much more.  You can talk about production but the kid was only 23 years old last year...give him some time.

3. Let’a not compare Luis Gonzalez to Fernando Tatis Jr because there is no comparison whatsoever there.

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

1. I agree Anderson’s ceiling is limited due to a lack of plate discipline, but his defense is much better than you give him credit for.  I think he ultimately settles in as a 2.5 to 3 win player and given his contract that’s fine.  Also,  Tatis had nothing to do with Anderson.

2. I think me and you are watching completely different players when it comes to Moncada.  If the dude can be a little bit more aggressive in his approach he’s an easy 3 to 4 win player to me with the upside for much more.  You can talk about production but the kid was only 23 years old last year...give him some time.

3. Let’a not compare Luis Gonzalez to Fernando Tatis Jr because there is no comparison whatsoever there.

I am really glad you still choose to talk baseball. Your insights are valuable to a board that is hurt but most still fails to see hope looking through the fire in their eyes or just plain lack of knowledge.

I get just as discouraged about posters lack of knowledge of the game as I do about the Sox owner and FO. Every time I challenge someone to give me a better cheaper innings eater than Nova  when they complain about his salary  all I get is a list of injured pitchers in 2018. It's like wow isn't the definition of an innings eater kind of self explanatory ? They can't even comprehend why a recently injured pitcher isn't an innings eater or why an innings eater helps the other starters and bullpen. I know Nova isn't guaranteed to be healthy in 2019 but his last 3 years of consistently eating innings and staying healthy provides a higher degree of certainty .

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3 hours ago, YouGottaBeBleepingMe said:

You will "trust the scout on Madrigal"? WTF? The kid is a baseball player. The kid is a winner. Maybe the kid is a hair slower than say Anderson or Moncada. Who gives a s***? He will make every routine play that guys like Anderson and Moncada struggle with half of the time. He will make the tougher play most of the time too. He makes contact. He gets on base. Every championship team has guys like him on it roster. Excluding Jimenez who has just mashed at every stop in the minors, Madrigal is the one prospect of ours that I have zero concern about. Madrigal is so good with the glove that I would move Anderson to second base for him.

Tim Anderson is a better defensive player than Nick Madrigal. If they both played SS Tim would be superior. Madrigal might be a gold glove 2nd baseman but he doesnt have the arm or the range of anderson.

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

1. I agree Anderson’s ceiling is limited due to a lack of plate discipline, but his defense is much better than you give him credit for.  I think he ultimately settles in as a 2.5 to 3 win player and given his contract that’s fine.  Also,  Tatis had nothing to do with Anderson.

2. I think me and you are watching completely different players when it comes to Moncada.  If the dude can be a little bit more aggressive in his approach he’s an easy 3 to 4 win player to me with the upside for much more.  You can talk about production but the kid was only 23 years old last year...give him some time.

3. Let’a not compare Luis Gonzalez to Fernando Tatis Jr because there is no comparison whatsoever there.

Tim has the talent to have a 780+ ops with top tier defense at short which is closer to a 5 WAR player. I could see Tim having a peak year going 30-30. His hands and wrists are so damn good.

Walking a little more would be nice undoubtably.

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3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Production in the minors means nothing. You can't start valuing production over upside until you get to the major league level. There are plenty of cases of players who were great at AA and AAA that couldn't hack it in the Majors. Your criticisms aren't wrong though. 

I think there's an argument to be made for both production and upside. A guy like Eloy because his production was so good it's easier to see his upside For those who don't produce  it's just harder to see the upside. Baseball is unique in that regard . Production in football and basketball is much more likely to translate to success at the higher level since you go from college to the pros. Almost no one in baseball goes from  college to MLB. Baseball requires much more fine tuning of the talent. For some it comes slowly or never does. Basketball and football more heavily relies on athletic ability and baseball is a game of patience, adjustments and outsmarting the other guy. A  hitter can have all kinds of natural ability but can't be patient or out think the pitcher will have a hard time showing off those abilities  AT the lower levels sheer talent might get you by without making adjustments ,outsmarting or patience but it will get you sooner or later the higher you rise. All it takes is one pronounced weakness for a hitter to fail because it will be exploited over and over again. Avi would be one of the best hitters in baseball if he ever learned to lay off the crap pitchers throw him but that lack of patience and knowing when the pitcher is more likely to throw you crap means he also isn't outsmarting too many pitchers.

Like you said there are plenty of guys who never made the leap from being productive minor leaguers to productive major leaguers. However there are probably far more examples or guys who couldn't be productive minor leaguers who also didn't become productive MLB players.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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12 hours ago, YouGottaBeBleepingMe said:

You will "trust the scout on Madrigal"? WTF? The kid is a baseball player. The kid is a winner. Maybe the kid is a hair slower than say Anderson or Moncada. Who gives a s***? He will make every routine play that guys like Anderson and Moncada struggle with half of the time. He will make the tougher play most of the time too. He makes contact. He gets on base. Every championship team has guys like him on it roster. Excluding Jimenez who has just mashed at every stop in the minors, Madrigal is the one prospect of ours that I have zero concern about. Madrigal is so good with the glove that I would move Anderson to second base for him.

Glad you are so high on Madrigal, bleeping me. I want him to be good. I just didn't like his physical makeup, his height. Altuve, I know ... I am hopeful and am glad you think he's can't miss. Cool.

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