The Rick Hahn Dynasty

[poppysox]

6 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I realize that the 2019 White Sox season is another season of tanking/losing on purpose/and a lost cause. Still, look at 3 of Hahns off season moves. If Alonso, Nova and Santana were traded today you couldn't get a bag of balls for them. On top of that millions of dollars are being spent on these stiffs. Hahn won't spend big money on premium free agents but will waste millions of dollars on Alonso, Nova and Santana.

Nova at 9 million is the one that I choke on.

[OneDog847]

8 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I realize that the 2019 White Sox season is another season of tanking/losing on purpose/and a lost cause. Still, look at 3 of Hahns off season moves. If Alonso, Nova and Santana were traded today you couldn't get a bag of balls for them. On top of that millions of dollars are being spent on these stiffs. Hahn won't spend big money on premium free agents but will waste millions of dollars on Alonso, Nova and Santana.

JR is the one who isn't allowing the big spending. 

[fathom]

Just now, OneDog847 said:

JR is the one who isn't allowing the big spending. 

Then we really need to find someone who does a better job of finding diamonds in the rough and doesn't waste 9 million dollars on washed-up vets.  This whole front office scheme is just not working, as there is so much data coming out at just how bad they are in every possible aspect.

[OneDog847]

9 minutes ago, fathom said:

Then we really need to find someone who does a better job of finding diamonds in the rough and doesn't waste 9 million dollars on washed-up vets.  This whole front office scheme is just not working, as there is so much data coming out at just how bad they are in every possible aspect.

You are preaching to the choir man. The scary thing is that Hahn is going to be shopping in the mid tier FA section over the next couple offseasons. 

[WBWSF]

5 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

You are preaching to the choir man. The scary thing is that Hahn is going to be shopping in the mid tier FA section over the next couple offseasons. 

Maybe not. Hahns contract runs out after this season. Another 100 loss season might send him to the unemployment line.

[Moan4Yoan]

Hahn spent around $45 million this past offseason.  How many of these guys are you excited to have in Sox uniforms?  Hahn would probably lose at the shell game each and every time.

Herrera ($9 million)

Nova ($9 million)

Alonso ($9 million)

Colome ($7.325 million)

Santana ($4.3 million)

Jay ($4 million)

McCann ($2.5 million)

Edited April 24, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Ozzie’s Cuban Cigar]

$45 mill for that pile of hot steaming garbage.  Yet....Couldn’t come up with $50mm for a legit star. 

 

[Timmy U]

1 hour ago, Harper2Sox said:

Hahn spent around $45 million this past offseason.  How many of these guys are you excited to have in Sox uniforms?  Hahn would probably lose at the shell game each and every time.

Herrera ($9 million)

Nova ($9 million)

Alonso ($9 million)

Colome ($7.325 million)

Santana ($4.3 million)

Jay ($4 million)

McCann ($2.5 million)

I really like McCann, and both Herrera and Colome have been good.  I was against Alonso, but he hasn't been horrible.  Nova wasn't that bad until tonight.  Jay has been hurt, but I'm not optimistic.  Santana has been hot garbage, but he's coming off an injury.  I don't think Hahn did well, but garbage picking is garbage picking.

[Moan4Yoan]

4 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I really like McCann, and both Herrera and Colome have been good.  I was against Alonso, but he hasn't been horrible.  Nova wasn't that bad until tonight.  Jay has been hurt, but I'm not optimistic.  Santana has been hot garbage, but he's coming off an injury.  I don't think Hahn did well, but garbage picking is garbage picking.

Yonder is currently sporting a .182 AVG with a .638 OPS.  Nova held a 6.23 ERA before this disastrous start ballooned it to 8.42.  And if Santana is coming off an injury and you anticipate that this will affect him negatively, either don’t sign him or see how he performs in Charlotte for a few starts before immediately calling him up so he can serve batting practice to major leaguers.

[Moan4Yoan]

6 hours ago, WBWSF said:

Maybe not. Hahns contract runs out after this season. Another 100 loss season might send him to the unemployment line.

How do you know this?  The only information I have seen on Hahn’s contract status is that he was extended long-term along with Kenny back in the summer of 2017.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/08/white-sox-recently-extended-kenny-williams-rick-hahn.html

Edited April 24, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[WBWSF]

3 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

How do you know this?  The only information I have seen on Hahn’s contract status is that he was extended long-term along with Kenny back in the summer of 2017.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/08/white-sox-recently-extended-kenny-williams-rick-hahn.html

It was mentioned at one of the season ticket seminars a couple of years ago. Hahn really has a great gig going for himself. He has the worse won-loss record of any MLB GM the last 6 years and he keeps his job.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

10 hours ago, fathom said:

Then we really need to find someone who does a better job of finding diamonds in the rough and doesn't waste 9 million dollars on washed-up vets.  This whole front office scheme is just not working, as there is so much data coming out at just how bad they are in every possible aspect.

It’s a reflection of ownership. I think of the Mets in the same vein. Due to similar ownership restrictions, they are often shopping from the mid tier level of free agents/veterans. They have been one of the most aggressive teams in baseball in adding veterans over the past couple winters. In fact, 5 of their 8 highest paid players this season were added to the organization within the past 18 months (the other three being Cespedes, deGrom, Lagares; two of which are currently on the IL). Here’s how they are performing so far this season:

Robinson Cano ($19M) 0.1 fWAR

Wilson Ramos ($7.25M) -0.1 fWAR

Todd Frazier ($9M) 0.1 fWAR

Jason Vargas ($8M) -0.2 fWAR

Jed Lowrie ($8.5M) 0.0 fWAR

That’s $51.25M across 5 mid-tier vets that have combined for a total of -0.1 fWAR so far this season.

Even when you are willling to spend money for the “premier” free agents, you can end up with a Heyward or a Darvish.

Point is, it’s difficult to obtain value from the free agent/veteran market, which is why I’m all for utilizing the money to lock up the young core for an extended period. We’re already there with TA and Eloy. Now I’d like to see it done with Moncada. Get it done Rick.

 

[GreatScott82]

23 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

It was mentioned at one of the season ticket seminars a couple of years ago. Hahn really has a great gig going for himself. He has the worse won-loss record of any MLB GM the last 6 years and he keeps his job.

If you work for the White Sox you will be there as long as Jerry's around. He doesn't fire anybody. Even the managers have to fire themselves around here. White Sox fans are stuck with the guys in charge. And since they have been failures for over a decade, the odds of these same guys suddenly turning it around are slim. We should know by early 2020 if this rebuild will work or not. I mean even if it doesn't work, Hahn will still be around, and Kenny and Renteria and Coop etc..... 

[WBWSF]

13 minutes ago, GreatScott82 said:

If you work for the White Sox you will be there as long as Jerry's around. He doesn't fire anybody. Even the managers have to fire themselves around here. White Sox fans are stuck with the guys in charge. And since they have been failures for over a decade, the odds of these same guys suddenly turning it around are slim. We should know by early 2020 if this rebuild will work or not. I mean even if it doesn't work, Hahn will still be around, and Kenny and Renteria and Coop etc..... 

You stick around working for JR IF you get along with him. If you don't get along with him, you're gone. The best and most productive GM that was hired by JR was Larry Himes. Himes didn't get along nor did he like JR and he was gone. What always got me about the Himes incident was after JR essentially fired him, JR went on all the TV and radio shows and bad mouthed him to death. It was a low class thing on JRs behalf.  JR also didn't get along with Harry Caray and Caray was gone. JR called Caray scum after he left the White Sox.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

14 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

You stick around working for JR IF you get along with him. If you don't get along with him, you're gone. The best and most productive GM that was hired by JR was Larry Himes. Himes didn't get along nor did he like JR and he was gone. What always got me about the Himes incident was after JR essentially fired him, JR went on all the TV and radio shows and bad mouthed him to death. It was a low class thing on JRs behalf.  JR also didn't get along with Harry Caray and Caray was gone. JR called Caray scum after he left the White Sox.

He wouldn’t be the first business owner to fire an employee that he doesn’t get along with regardless of how talented they are. 

[mqr]

They’re going to keep trotting these two bums out there instead of giving someone like Stephens or Guerrero a shot. Probably send banuelos back to the pen too. Infuriating. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by mqr

[SCCWS]

55 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s a reflection of ownership. I think of the Mets in the same vein. Due to similar ownership restrictions, they are often shopping from the mid tier level of free agents/veterans. They have been one of the most aggressive teams in baseball in adding veterans over the past couple winters. In fact, 5 of their 8 highest paid players this season were added to the organization within the past 18 months (the other three being Cespedes, deGrom, Lagares; two of which are currently on the IL). Here’s how they are performing so far this season:

Robinson Cano ($19M) 0.1 fWAR

Wilson Ramos ($7.25M) -0.1 fWAR

Todd Frazier ($9M) 0.1 fWAR

Jason Vargas ($8M) -0.2 fWAR

Jed Lowrie ($8.5M) 0.0 fWAR

That’s $51.25M across 5 mid-tier vets that have combined for a total of -0.1 fWAR so far this season.

Even when you are willling to spend money for the “premier” free agents, you can end up with a Heyward or a Darvish.

Point is, it’s difficult to obtain value from the free agent/veteran market, which is why I’m all for utilizing the money to lock up the young core for an extended period. We’re already there with TA and Eloy. Now I’d like to see it done with Moncada. Get it done Rick.

 

Agree but a couple of last year's, Lorenzo Cain(6.9) and JD Martinez(6.4 )had huge years.  

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Agree but a couple of last year's, Lorenzo Cain(6.9) and JD Martinez(6.4 )had huge years.  

You are correct that a couple guys out of last year's free agent class had huge years. But that's the trick, it's "a couple". Here's every player who signed a $10m AAV contract in 2018-2019.

Hosmer
Martinez
Cain
Arrieta
Carlos Santana
Alex Cobb
Wade Davis
Jay Bruce
Zach Cozart
Tyler Chatwood
Brandon Morrow
CC Sabathia

How many of those guys do you actually want in 2018 for the money they signed? I count Martinez, Cain, and Sabathia. The same thing happens in the next tier down - you're lucky if 25% of the free agent signings have good solid years, another 15-25% might be tolerable, and then half of them are "well we wish we hadn't done that". 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It’s a reflection of ownership. I think of the Mets in the same vein. Due to similar ownership restrictions, they are often shopping from the mid tier level of free agents/veterans. They have been one of the most aggressive teams in baseball in adding veterans over the past couple winters. In fact, 5 of their 8 highest paid players this season were added to the organization within the past 18 months (the other three being Cespedes, deGrom, Lagares; two of which are currently on the IL). Here’s how they are performing so far this season:

Robinson Cano ($19M) 0.1 fWAR

Wilson Ramos ($7.25M) -0.1 fWAR

Todd Frazier ($9M) 0.1 fWAR

Jason Vargas ($8M) -0.2 fWAR

Jed Lowrie ($8.5M) 0.0 fWAR

That’s $51.25M across 5 mid-tier vets that have combined for a total of -0.1 fWAR so far this season.

Even when you are willling to spend money for the “premier” free agents, you can end up with a Heyward or a Darvish.

Point is, it’s difficult to obtain value from the free agent/veteran market, which is why I’m all for utilizing the money to lock up the young core for an extended period. We’re already there with TA and Eloy. Now I’d like to see it done with Moncada. Get it done Rick.

 

If Moncada keeps playing like this, he just has to wait 1-2 years and he's a $250 million contract player. Are you prepared to commit that money to him? Would the White Sox be?

[Balta1701]

11 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

Hahn spent around $45 million this past offseason.  How many of these guys are you excited to have in Sox uniforms?  Hahn would probably lose at the shell game each and every time.

Herrera ($9 million)

Nova ($9 million)

Alonso ($9 million)

Colome ($7.325 million)

Santana ($4.3 million)

Jay ($4 million)

McCann ($2.5 million)

A couple important points.

1. The people who thought the White Sox could be competitive this season by spending their money smartly need to stare at this list for hours. Remember when people spent January saying we had the best bullpen in the AL Central? (Slightly bitter)

2. The White Sox were always going to have to spend money on some garbage this offseason. They needed starting pitching. Bullpen help was useful. They simply didn't have the warm bodies. Nova is annoying us right now, but last offseason people were screaming "Anything but another year of James Shields we'll even pay extra for it". They did exactly that. 

3. The White Sox could have gotten a good amount more out of their money, even by dumpster diving. Shields instead of Nova, no Alonso, Holland instead of Herrera, no Jay, non-tender Abreu if desperate. Honestly though, they're extremely profitable and their payroll is extremely low, on paper we shouldn't care if they wasted $45 million when they coulda gotten by spending $10 million. That should have been a minor matter, except:

4. Where this really stung was the team spending this money and then immediately coming out and saying "How on Earth do you expect us to afford to keep our next core together while spending money on a guy like Machado"? Those repeated statements from Kenny Williams are the salt in the wound here. We were always going to be losing, we were always going to be bottom feeding, but to see this substantial amount of money flushed down the toilet while they simultaneously, publicly, repeatedly cried and acted poor...That contrast is the real debacle. If they're too poor to sign a guy to a competitive deal with an opt out, then they're too poor to waste this money.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

24 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Agree but a couple of last year's, Lorenzo Cain(6.9) and JD Martinez(6.4 )had huge years.  

Oh yea, they are out there but it seems it has become increasingly difficult to land guys like Cain and JDM and more common to land the duds via free agency.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

A couple important points.

1. The people who thought the White Sox could be competitive this season by spending their money smartly need to stare at this list for hours. Remember when people spent January saying we had the best bullpen in the AL Central? (Slightly bitter)

2. The White Sox were always going to have to spend money on some garbage this offseason. They needed starting pitching. Bullpen help was useful. They simply didn't have the warm bodies. Nova is annoying us right now, but last offseason people were screaming "Anything but another year of James Shields we'll even pay extra for it". They did exactly that. 

3. The White Sox could have gotten a good amount more out of their money, even by dumpster diving. Shields instead of Nova, no Alonso, Holland instead of Herrera, no Jay, non-tender Abreu if desperate. Honestly though, they're extremely profitable and their payroll is extremely low, on paper we shouldn't care if they wasted $45 million when they coulda gotten by spending $10 million. That should have been a minor matter, except:

4. Where this really stung was the team spending this money and then immediately coming out and saying "How on Earth do you expect us to afford to keep our next core together while spending money on a guy like Machado"? Those repeated statements from Kenny Williams are the salt in the wound here. We were always going to be losing, we were always going to be bottom feeding, but to see this substantial amount of money flushed down the toilet while they simultaneously, publicly, repeatedly cried and acted poor...That contrast is the real debacle. If they're too poor to sign a guy to a competitive deal with an opt out, then they're too poor to waste this money.

All of the guys you mentioned above will not be on this team when the organization is attempting to keep the core together. Heck, most will be gone after this season or next season at the latest.

$45M now when team payroll is already sub $100M is far different than $30M AAV on Machado in years 2021 thru 2028 when the young core starts to hit their expensive years through arbitration or contract extensions. The cost of Machado’s contract is not an issue this year or next year but will be in future years if they intend to lock down guys like Moncada that will likely be even better than Machado during those years. I don’t know why people have such a hard time understanding that concept. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

All of the guys you mentioned above will not be on this team when the organization is attempting to keep the core together. Heck, most will be gone after this season or next season at the latest.

$45M now when team payroll is already sub $100M is far different than $30M AAV on Machado in years 2021 thru 2028 when the young core starts to hit their expensive years through arbitration or contract extensions. The cost of Machado’s contract is not an issue this year or next year but will be in future years if they intend to lock down guys like Moncada that will likely be even better than Machado during those years. I don’t know why people have such a hard time understanding that concept. 

You do realize "Banks" are a thing that exists right? That $45 million today >>> $30 million in 10 years because money can be saved and stored for future use?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

If Moncada keeps playing like this, he just has to wait 1-2 years and he's a $250 million contract player. Are you prepared to commit that money to him? Would the White Sox be?

Moncada is under team control through the 2023 season. Not sure where you are coming up with 1-2 years because he is still 4.5 years away from cashing in on a $250M contract if he decides to hit free agency as soon as possible.

[Balta1701]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Moncada is under team control through the 2023 season. Not sure where you are coming up with 1-2 years because he is still 4.5 years away from cashing in on a $250M contract if he decides to hit free agency as soon as possible.

If he gets all the way to free agency hitting like this, he'd score well over $350 million in the current market. If he gets to his arbitration years and you want to extend him, that's comparable to what Arenado got this year. Pick your number, an extension for Moncada is a $200 million+ contract or he has no reason whatsoever to sign it.