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4 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The negativity on Soxtalk has reached a fever pitch and I just don't understand it.  For years the mantra has been...we must rebuild to move forward...we need patience...don't rush prospects.  And all of a sudden...with so much good rebuild news...everyone is losing their minds over a dozen major league games?  Moncada and Tim Anderson are two of the hottest hitters in baseball.  Eloy in the last seven games is hitting .321.  Rodon has pitched very well in two of his three starts and has 24 strikeouts in 16 innings.  Giolito has pitched great in one start and not so well against a hot team...but has struck out 12 in 11 innings and he's a failure?   Meanwhile Zack Collins has 4 homers and a triple in 14 at bats.  Dylan Cease was great in his first start.  Robert is hitting .400 with 4 home runs and three stolen bases in 6 games.  Hansen looks to be on the road back.  Madrigal had a great spring and we have the number three pick in a draft with three great looking prospects....so many exciting pieces doing exciting things and we are losing our minds because Ervin Santana gave up 7 runs in 3 innings or Daniel Palka is 0-20??   

People are recognizing that an extra piece outside of the organization will be needed in order to be great.  The Sox balked when presented with that extra piece.

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1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

 

I will say the following  for the last time 1) Low White Sox payrolls equals more moola for JR and his investors.  2) This rebuild/tanking will be done as cheaply as possible.

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3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

We had a Kenny Williams problem.  He took over a 95 win team with the #1 rated farm system in 2000 and left a dumpster fire 12 years later.  But because we had some amazing parts in Sale and Quintana we tried for a few years to limp into the playoffs and hope for a dominant pitching run.  December 2016 we started the rebuild.  New gm,  New team building plan,  New minor league coaches, New drafting philosophy...and I think two years on there is a ton of hope.  Yes we didn't get Machado...but we weren't winning this year and Moncada has looked great at 3rd...and in theory we have $250 million to spend on parts we need more next year.  Maybe the plan won't work but by God it seems like a reasonable plan that is working...with time.   

We have a Jerry Reinsdorf problem plain and simple.  Starts with him employing competent people and not keeping idiots around for decades because he's "loyal" ++ being able to occasionally write a large check for quality talent.

They don't have "250m to spend on parts we need" when they A) Can't identify what a quality part even is B) There are not enough quality parts available.

They need ALL of these prospects to hit + lock more up with long term deals as after this batch its going to be a much darker period because they don't have a Sale/Q/Eaton dump to reload with.

 

Edited by jenksycat
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1 hour ago, jenksycat said:

We have a Jerry Reinsdorf problem plain and simple.  Starts with him employing competent people and not keeping idiots around for decades because he's "loyal" ++ being able to occasionally write a large check for quality talent.

They don't have "250m to spend on parts we need" when they A) Can't identify what a quality part even is B) There are not enough quality parts available.

They need ALL of these prospects to hit + lock more up with long term deals as after this batch its going to be a much darker period because they don't have a Sale/Q/Eaton dump to reload with.

 

This is all true, but it feels like Jerry has been lulled into complacency. He after all, did force Krause out. HE did fire people and have org shakeups at points. But since basically 2003 in both of his orgs he has decided that nothing needs to change and there is no bottom.

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1 hour ago, jenksycat said:

We have a Jerry Reinsdorf problem plain and simple.  Starts with him employing competent people and not keeping idiots around for decades because he's "loyal" ++ being able to occasionally write a large check for quality talent.

They don't have "250m to spend on parts we need" when they A) Can't identify what a quality part even is B) There are not enough quality parts available.

They need ALL of these prospects to hit + lock more up with long term deals as after this batch its going to be a much darker period because they don't have a Sale/Q/Eaton dump to reload with.

 

The White Sox are actually 3032-2998 under JR's regime.  They won the first world series in 90 years under him.  Should have won another in 94 but lost to the strike.  It's not a legendary franchise but it's ours.  They tried hard to repeat after the WS in 2005...but baseball gods were against them...as they are against most teams.  Then as that team was beginning to fall apart they lucked into Sale/Quintana and tried to see if they could turn the team into a Randy Johnson/Curt Shilling type WS...but by 2016 they realized that they just weren't good enough...almost everyone on the board agreed...and they sold at the perfect time.  They got some great looking parts from the trades and many of those parts are beginning to look good.  I'm excited every day to see the minor league box scores.  Yes the current team is garbage except for about 6 parts...but that's six parts they didn't have in 2017.   Next year it should be 12 parts...and begin to be competitive.  Yes it would have been nice to get Machado...but he wasn't the answer....baseball isn't basketball...one guy doesn't change everything.  The answer as it's always been is about 20 guys in the minors right now...and six pieces in the majors...and more to come in the draft...and yes...they will spend money...The White Sox have rarely (since Bill Veeck days) been penury.           

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The negativity is pretty understandable if you look at a number of factors:

1. Poor on-field performance early in the season. This is undeniable and quantifiable, and as such becomes a barometer for how far we still have to go before the team is good. That point is still far off and will require a number of possibilities to pan out in the best possible way to happen, while simultaneously, the number of possibilities in play seems to be growing smaller by the day (ie Giolito and Lopez being rotation pieces, Rodon even being good enough to trade),

2. Poor off-field performance by the FO. This is more subjective, but it is probably not controversial to say that the White Sox have a perception problem regarding the last few off-seasons, mainly tied to their inability to convert on big targets and seeming cluelessness at how this might turn into bad PR for the team.

3. The perception of the rebuild having "stalled" due to injuries and uncertainty in performance. This is the most subjective but also the most troubling, since it takes the misery of the "losing" part of this process and both prolongs and magnifies it, while casting doubt on the surety of a positive outcome.

There's more but writing about this team is making me tired.

Edit - You can add to this the near-record profitability of the team stemming from the lack of resources being put back into the on-field product. Profitability without accountability is never a harbinger of good things.

Edited by daggins
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52 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The White Sox are actually 3032-2998 under JR's regime.  They won the first world series in 90 years under him.  Should have won another in 94 but lost to the strike.  It's not a legendary franchise but it's ours.  They tried hard to repeat after the WS in 2005...but baseball gods were against them...as they are against most teams.  Then as that team was beginning to fall apart they lucked into Sale/Quintana and tried to see if they could turn the team into a Randy Johnson/Curt Shilling type WS...but by 2016 they realized that they just weren't good enough...almost everyone on the board agreed...and they sold at the perfect time.  They got some great looking parts from the trades and many of those parts are beginning to look good.  I'm excited every day to see the minor league box scores.  Yes the current team is garbage except for about 6 parts...but that's six parts they didn't have in 2017.   Next year it should be 12 parts...and begin to be competitive.  Yes it would have been nice to get Machado...but he wasn't the answer....baseball isn't basketball...one guy doesn't change everything.  The answer as it's always been is about 20 guys in the minors right now...and six pieces in the majors...and more to come in the draft...and yes...they will spend money...The White Sox have rarely (since Bill Veeck days) been penury.           

Jerry Reinsdorf has been in charge of this team since 1981.  37+ years.  They have 5 post season appearances in those 37 years.  

That sucks

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25 minutes ago, jenksycat said:

Jerry Reinsdorf has been in charge of this team since 1981.  37+ years.  They have 5 post season appearances in those 37 years.  

That sucks

And the 37 years before JR...one post season appearance....so a 500% improvement under Jerry.😃  This is not the Yankees we have chosen to follow.  Still the rebuild was the right path...it's going to take patience.  This team was never going to be good in 2019.  Kopech/Burdi/Basabe/Dunning/Burger/Robert injuries have hurt...but are not catastrophic for the long run.  It still feels like we have a ton of talent that will all come together about 2021.  I think we could have a very nice run from 2021-2025.        

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57 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

And the 37 years before JR...one post season appearance....so a 500% improvement under Jerry.😃  This is not the Yankees we have chosen to follow.  Still the rebuild was the right path...it's going to take patience.  This team was never going to be good in 2019.  Kopech/Burdi/Basabe/Dunning/Burger/Robert injuries have hurt...but are not catastrophic for the long run.  It still feels like we have a ton of talent that will all come together about 2021.  I think we could have a very nice run from 2021-2025.        

And how much of that time period you are mentioning will be wiped out by a labor impasse? Just asking...

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2 hours ago, daggins said:

The negativity is pretty understandable if you look at a number of factors:

1. Poor on-field performance early in the season. This is undeniable and quantifiable, and as such becomes a barometer for how far we still have to go before the team is good. That point is still far off and will require a number of possibilities to pan out in the best possible way to happen, while simultaneously, the number of possibilities in play seems to be growing smaller by the day (ie Giolito and Lopez being rotation pieces, Rodon even being good enough to trade),

2. Poor off-field performance by the FO. This is more subjective, but it is probably not controversial to say that the White Sox have a perception problem regarding the last few off-seasons, mainly tied to their inability to convert on big targets and seeming cluelessness at how this might turn into bad PR for the team.

3. The perception of the rebuild having "stalled" due to injuries and uncertainty in performance. This is the most subjective but also the most troubling, since it takes the misery of the "losing" part of this process and both prolongs and magnifies it, while casting doubt on the surety of a positive outcome.

There's more but writing about this team is making me tired.

Edit - You can add to this the near-record profitability of the team stemming from the lack of resources being put back into the on-field product. Profitability without accountability is never a harbinger of good things.

I think the outright, blatant dishonesty and disrespect showed by the top brass towards its fans this offseason needs to be on this list somewhere. Lying to our faces and then calling us stupid for believing the lie just because the lie would have been a good baseball move.

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I dont have much faith in this org, and i think the rebuild will indeed fail. I am hoping they prove me wrong though otherwise im going to either stop watching baseball or pick another team. I cant deal with this much longer

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Another thing that bugs me is that Rick Hahn is capable of better.  He's the one who executed the clever Eaton trade.   Even last year, he got Soria and Avilan for a Rule 5 guy.  That  should have set up at least an interesting July move...instead he makes a lazy trade for another Rule 5.   His secondary trades have largely been non-efforts.

Of course, Eaton trade may have just been luck...you will eventually score with one.  Still he could have been more aggressive in the As/Rays/Brewers/Mariners sense, and chose otherwise.  Even if he scored with all of his top prospect acquisitions,  he'd still have to fill 5-6 positions....and these days he seems incapable of doing even that.

Edited by GreenSox

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35 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think the outright, blatant dishonesty and disrespect showed by the top brass towards its fans this offseason needs to be on this list somewhere. Lying to our faces and then calling us stupid for believing the lie just because the lie would have been a good baseball move.

It's kind of baked into point 2. In a tenure marked by lowlights, this offseason felt like the nadir.

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13 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Another thing that bugs me is that Rick Hahn is capable of better.  He's the one who executed the clever Eaton trade.   Even last year, he got Soria and Avilan for a Rule 5 guy.  That  should have set up at least an interesting July move...instead he makes a lazy trade for another Rule 5.   His secondary trades have largely been non-efforts.

Of course, Eaton trade may have just been luck...you will eventually score with one.  Still he could have been more aggressive in the As/Rays/Brewers/Mariners sense, and chose otherwise.  Even if he scored with all of his top prospect acquisitions,  he'd still have to fill 5-6 positions....and these days he seems incapable of doing even that.

I think it was still a good move but the Eaton trade isn’t looking so hot currently.  Giolito and Lopez are both struggling and Dunning had TJ surgery.  And what did Soria bring in?  Medeiros?  Big deal.  The horrific Shields trade screws Hahn’s overall grade anyways.  He gave up a franchise player for a broken down pitcher who put up a 5.31 ERA in 67 starts in a Sox uniform.  That’s putrid.

Edited by Harper2Sox

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On 4/9/2019 at 5:57 PM, Chicago White Sox said:

The reality is our front office has to deal with Jerry’s limitations and therefore should not be out there swinging their dick around all offseason like they’re going to land a big fish when they’re not even able to make a make what most would deem a market-level offer.  That to me is the biggest offense and proof these guys are beyond incompetent.

Well said

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4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

And how much of that time period you are mentioning will be wiped out by a labor impasse? Just asking...

That should be interesting. Cause usually I figure the players have it made and they realize it and there's no reason to strike. But this current system is kind of anti player. They are stuck with the one team for how many years is it? A lotta years where they aren't making a lot of money. Can you imagine if the players got it changed to where they could be unrestricted free agents after 2 seasons or something? Owners wouldn't be able to help themselves and third-year players would be making 50 or more mill a year. I would think the players may have to strike this time.

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8 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

You can’t spend a dollar if you only have 50 cents.  🤣

Kenny....is that you????

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14 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The White Sox are actually 3032-2998 under JR's regime.  They won the first world series in 90 years under him.  Should have won another in 94 but lost to the strike.  It's not a legendary franchise but it's ours.  They tried hard to repeat after the WS in 2005...but baseball gods were against them...as they are against most teams.  Then as that team was beginning to fall apart they lucked into Sale/Quintana and tried to see if they could turn the team into a Randy Johnson/Curt Shilling type WS...but by 2016 they realized that they just weren't good enough...almost everyone on the board agreed...and they sold at the perfect time.  They got some great looking parts from the trades and many of those parts are beginning to look good.  I'm excited every day to see the minor league box scores.  Yes the current team is garbage except for about 6 parts...but that's six parts they didn't have in 2017.   Next year it should be 12 parts...and begin to be competitive.  Yes it would have been nice to get Machado...but he wasn't the answer....baseball isn't basketball...one guy doesn't change everything.  The answer as it's always been is about 20 guys in the minors right now...and six pieces in the majors...and more to come in the draft...and yes...they will spend money...The White Sox have rarely (since Bill Veeck days) been penury.           

This is the 29th year in which the “JR regime” has operated under the benefit of MASSIVE TAXPAYER SUBSIDIES courtesy of the sweetheart leasedeal Reinsdorf backed a bunch of weak Illinois politicians into giving him back in the late ‘80s.  

It’s also the 25th year the major market Sox have played in the small-market dominated A.L. Central.  Yet through all of that, all the Sox have essentially to show for it is a .500 record, and you act like that’s some sort of a bragging right?  

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3 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

This is the 29th year in which the “JR regime” has operated under the benefit of MASSIVE TAXPAYER SUBSIDIES courtesy of the sweetheart leasedeal Reinsdorf backed a bunch of weak Illinois politicians into giving him back in the late ‘80s.  

It’s also the 25th year the major market Sox have played in the small-market dominated A.L. Central.  Yet through all of that, all the Sox have essentially to show for it is a .500 record, and you act like that’s some sort of a bragging right?  

Exactly. The White Sox have been irrelevant for 10+ years now. They embarked on a rebuild that the fans bought into, because their old ways of doing business was piss poor and led to crappy records and uninspiring on-field performances. They set themselves up perfectly for this 2019 offseason to connect on a generational talent to expedite this rebuild, and got bogged down by $50 million. Pathetic. The dagger in all of this is that they probably were being ridiculously presumptuous in believing guys like Bogaerts or Arenado would be there the next winter.... NOPE! I've already heard Hahn mention, "When the time comes, we will eventually start looking to trade some of our prospect depth to acquire outside talent". Welp, so much for prospect depth and development. Due to their shortcomings, the White Sox will go back to their old ways of doing business. Not good! White Sox fans deserve better. JR is out of touch with the reality of modern baseball an KW and Hahn are bad at their jobs. For every good move they make, and there has been a few, they probably have made 2-3 bad moves. Not a good ratio if you ask me. 

Edited by GreatScott82
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