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Per Forbes: White Sox 6th most profitable team by operating income, valued at 1.6B overall

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13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

JR wants to win, but he doesn’t know how anymore. It is all based on so many things having to go right, it isn’t feasible. It worked one year in baseball. MJ was his golden goose obvious withe the Bulls He and Krause couldn’t wait until Michael was gone and the. They could start getting credit for championships. Didn’t quite work out.

Well yes, he wants to win, but who doesn’t?  Every owner in the game wants to win, so this characteristic does not differentiate Reinsdorf from his peers.

What does differentiate is how he prioritizes winning among his two other top objectives: profitability and his so-called “loyalty” program.  The goals around those two seemingly garner far greater attention and prioritization than putting a winning product on the field.  His record supports that.

Reinsdorf  has made the Sox quite profitable, which is great for him and the investors.  Successful there.  Reinsdorf has been wildly loyal to people within the organization upon whom his favor rests, whether they’ve been good and successful at their jobs or not.  He’s been successful in letting people he likes to stick around indefinitely.  That’s good for Reinsdorf and his friends in the organization.  

It’s the objective of putting a winning ball club together, which would be GOOD FOR US, THE FANS, that he’s miserably failed to achieve.  That’s the cause of the angst with the fan base, pure and simple.  And all of this has pretty much defined Reinsdorf and his 38 years of ownership of the ball club.  

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6 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

You're out on an island here, man.  Jerry wants to win.  That may be the only indisputable thing.

Maybe he doesn't know how.  Maybe he's loyal to a fault.  Whatever the reason, JR wants to win but the White Sox simply haven't or can't.

He “doesn’t know how”?  The longest tenured owner in the game “doesn’t know how” to win?  Shouldn’t it be the other way around?  I could see saying something like this about a new ownership group like what Jeter has going down in Miami.  But saying this about a guy who’s been at this for nearly 40 years now screams out “failed ownership” more than anything else that could possibly be said.  

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6 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

He “doesn’t know how”?  The longest tenured owner in the game “doesn’t know how” to win?  Shouldn’t it be the other way around?  I could see saying something like this about a new ownership group like what Jeter has going down in Miami.  But saying this about a guy who’s been at this for nearly 40 years now screams out “failed ownership” more than anything else that could possibly be said.  

You have that backwards.  A long time owner might not evolve with the game as quickly.  

Honestly, dude, we're all speculating here, but your feelings simply aren't backed up by facts.

Jerry wants to win.  That doesn't mean he's not cheap.  That doesn't mean he hasn't won recently.

All it means is we know Jerry wants to win.

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2 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

You have that backwards.  A long time owner might not evolve with the game as quickly.  

Honestly, dude, we're all speculating here, but your feelings simply aren't backed up by facts.

Jerry wants to win.  That doesn't mean he's not cheap.  That doesn't mean he hasn't won recently.

All it means is we know Jerry wants to win.

If that’s the best you can say about the man, that he “wants to win”, well, that’s almost damning with faint praise. 

Every owner “wants to win”.  Name us one that doesn’t.  

The difference is Reinsdorf either doesn’t want to win as badly as his peers, won’t expend the resources necessary to do so (see past offseason), or an unfortunate combination of both.  

Surely you see a disconnect between your claim he “wants to win” and his miserable record over a 38 period of doing so.  Why hasn’t his wanting to win translated into far more of it?  Just bad luck?

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Just because someone says “JR wants to win” doesn’t mean it’s really true. Actions speak louder than words, and he sure doesn’t seem to be putting his organizations in the best chance to succeed.

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5 minutes ago, fathom said:

Just because someone says “JR wants to win” doesn’t mean it’s really true. Actions speak louder than words, and he sure doesn’t seem to be putting his organizations in the best chance to succeed.

Exactly.   

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1 hour ago, fathom said:

Just because someone says “JR wants to win” doesn’t mean it’s really true. Actions speak louder than words, and he sure doesn’t seem to be putting his organizations in the best chance to succeed.

So the Astros and the Cubs didn't want to win when they blew it up?

 

More flathom fathom flavum soft takes.

Edited by AustinIllini
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I'd just like to put it out there that owning a team is not the same as running a standard business. It should not be a money making venture, there's 123 teams in the 4 major US leagues,  there's more than enough billionaires out there willing to burn a small portion of their fortune for a shot at winning a championship, professional teams should absolutely operate at a loss or break even. You don't buy a fucking team to make money, it's a frivolity for the ultra rich, an extremely high profile yacht.

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If you don't want to pump money into the organization and lose a very small amount of money every year fuck the hell off. Every MLB team is worth over a billion dollars, cash out and let someone else give it a shot.

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2 hours ago, Kalapse said:

I'd just like to put it out there that owning a team is not the same as running a standard business. It should not be a money making venture, there's 123 teams in the 4 major US leagues,  there's more than enough billionaires out there willing to burn a small portion of their fortune for a shot at winning a championship, professional teams should absolutely operate at a loss or break even. You don't buy a fucking team to make money, it's a frivolity for the ultra rich, an extremely high profile yacht.

A million times yes. This is what I always try to say but suck at the whole English language thing. 

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2 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

So the Astros and the Cubs didn't want to win when they blew it up?

 

More flathom fathom flavum soft takes.

Talk about “soft takes”...

Did either of the Astros or Cubs use the same sh*theads who were responsible for the need for their rebuilds” when they decided to “blew it up”?  That’s the difference here.  Both the Astros and Cubs’ success was due to subsequent and superior management folks coming in and cleaning up the mess of their inferior predecessors to build their eventual, sustainabitable products.  

That is what our franchise and fan base so desperately needs: new ownership, and with that, a new management team, and a complete and new fresh look as to how to take advantage of the market our White Sox play in.   

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11 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

So the Astros and the Cubs didn't want to win when they blew it up?

 

More flathom fathom flavum soft takes.

What the fuck does the Cubs or Astros rebuilding have to do with Jerry Reinsdorf wanting to win or not?  And to answer your dumb question, those teams wanted to win so badly they decided to take on short-term losses to set themselves up for sustainable success.

Moving past your nonsensical post, all owners want to win, the difference between a good owner and bad owner is what they do to support winning in a handful of areas.  

1) Are they willing to commit as much of their financial resources as they possibly can into the team.  2) Are they able to hire smart baseball people to run their organization.  3) Are they willing to create a culture of accountability and replace leaders that fail to build a winning product.  4)  Are they willing to allow their front office to operate free of restrictions and shape the organization as they see fit.

Reinsdorf fails in all those areas.  He refuses to invest in his club preemptively to build fan interest when it could pay dividends long-term.  He also refuses to go into the red even when there is strategic merit for short-term losses.  Jerry wants to win as long as there are some profits to be made and he isn’t forced to go into cash reserves.

For 2 & 3, he has had the same two guys lead this organization for the last 15 to 20 years and the results have been very poor to the say the least.  Part of that is due to short-sighted decision making that saw us go for it year-after-year despite our owner not willing to commit the necessary financial resources to successfully execute such a plan.  However, the lack of investment in analytics and player development is probably the bigger crime and has put us way behind most organizations.  Unfortunately, Jerry’s culture of unwavering loyalty allows for stubborn & uncreative thinking and prevents an influx of new voices with fresh ideas.  

Finally, for item 4, Reinsdorf has a vast history of interfering with operations.  For years we couldn’t go over slot in the draft because he was buds with Bud.  We couldn’t offer pitchers too long of deals because of his risk tolerance.  And there is no doubt in my mind the constant “go for it” mentality we previously operated under is the result of Jerry dictating the strategic vision of the franchise.

I have no doubt Jerry would rather win than lose, but his actions (or lack thereof) have been a deterrent to the organization’s well-being and he is no doubt a bad owner for the reasons I highlighted above.

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I said all offseason when people were freaking out like little school girls at the prospect of getting Harper and/or Machado that this team isn't any good. That we need to have a foundation before we worry about choosing what type of flooring to buy. That stance remains unchanged the number one problem with this franchise is not an inability to spend money it's an inability to judge and develop talent at the minor league level.

If anything the one saving grace and what gives us the best chance is moving forward is we don't have a ton of big money contracts on the roster. Whomever comes in afterwards is free to execute their own vision on their timetable.

I don't care how much money the owner makes in the nearterm we are all aware this is at best a mid market team and in order for the Whitesox to be successful we need to have numerous guys on their pre-FA contracts play well. Once that happens then lets worry if the Chisox/Jerry aren't spending but until then I don't want Hahn or KW to burden the next regime with a bunch of longterm deals so he can win a bunch of meaningless games in lost seasons

 

Edited by wrathofhahn
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16 hours ago, AustinIllini said:

Jerry wants to win.  That doesn't mean he's not cheap.  That doesn't mean he hasn't won recently.

All it means is we know Jerry wants to win.

Two more things:

A.). He HASN’T won recently, if you haven’t noticed.  He HASN’T won in over a decade, and is presiding over the 4th longest playoff drought, and

B.)  If you truly believe he “wants to win”, how do you explain how every other team in the A.L. Central, which includes three small market teams, has had a total team payroll at one time greater than anything Reinsdorf has ever shelled out in a given year?  You couple that fact with the disgraceful display of full-on cheapness we saw this past offseason, and you have no leg to stand on claiming this mongrel “wants to win”.

As a few other posters have mentioned, “actions speak louder than words”.  

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2 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Two more things:

A.). He HASN’T won recently, if you haven’t noticed.  He HASN’T won in over a decade, and is presiding over the 4th longest playoff drought, and

B.)  If you truly believe he “wants to win”, how do you explain how every other team in the A.L. Central, which includes three small market teams, has had a total team payroll at one time greater than anything Reinsdorf has ever shelled out in a given year?  You couple that fact with the disgraceful display of full-on cheapness we saw this past offseason, and you have no leg to stand on claiming this mongrel “wants to win”.

As a few other posters have mentioned, “actions speak louder than words”.  

That cliche needs to die in a fire. 

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11 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

That cliche needs to die in a fire. 

How is his first point (A) a cliche?  It’s a fact.

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1 hour ago, AustinIllini said:

"actions speak louder than words" is the cliche that needs to die in a fire.

But it’s true.  If you want to win, you spend money.  The Sox talked a big game about it and ended up with neither Machado nor Harper and an offseason of trash acquisitions.

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1 hour ago, AustinIllini said:

"actions speak louder than words" is the cliche that needs to die in a fire.

The only thing that needs to die in a fire is your pitiful and unsubstantiated suggestion that the current owner “wants to win”, when there is no such evidence to back up this lame claim.  

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22 minutes ago, Harper2Sox said:

But it’s true.  If you want to win, you spend money.  The Sox talked a big game about it and ended up with neither Machado nor Harper and an offseason of trash acquisitions.

Remember the rumor heading into offseason that Jerry wanted to make a big move to put butts in the seats?  Instead he did enough to drive fans away.

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On 4/12/2019 at 1:56 PM, raBBit said:

1) Yeah, you can reread the exchange and see who took it personal.

2) I don't want to call you wrong, you just happened to be wrong. You speak about everything matter-of-factly whether you have any substance behind your take or not.  Also, I pointed out you were wrong so people don't think your inaccurate info is real. Your response to me doing that is moving goal posts and making it personal because at the end of the day you can't back up bullshit with facts so changing the subject was your only course. I have asked for the rules before. They don't exist. I also PM'ed you asking what the broken rules were. You didn't respond. I guess you're more concerned with the public shaming attempt here than you are in clarity towards the rules.

3) I don't even know what you're talking about. You need this to be personal and you're taking it that way because you can't debate your points on merit because they are factually inaccurate. The hypocrisy is actually impressive. Instead of admitting you were wrong in the first place, you have absolutely derailed the thread to change the subject from you being wrong to me eating cake and likening me to a fallen company you don't understand.  That's great leadership. You need to get off your pedastool.

For those who don't know, the owner of the site has a young family and a demanding career and as a result, can't manage the site as much as may he have in the past. That's a great thing and has happened to a lot of people that used to be frequent users/mods/admins. I post way less than what I did when I was in. In any case, there are a bunch of mundane, boring tasks that need to be completed like accepting new members, monitoring for spam accounts, changing users names, etc. Since 2k5 is online here all the time, he does most of this stuff. So the site's back-end functioning is a lot of stuff s2k5 does. As such, he's valuable to keeping the site running and reprimanding him or calling him on his shit isn't something people are willing to do. And no one would want him to leave the site because those tedious tasks would have to be picked up by someone else. So the externality created is s2k5 thinks he's better than everyone else, can condescend/attack people without reprimand and can use his power against those he disagrees with (regardless of "rules" and norms around here).

And while the forum's reaction isn't infallible, look at how objective people responded to this personal shit storm you created. I might flip it the other way by addressing it but there's not a lot of support for your posts in this. People seem to be responding positively to what I had to you. And I am not the most popular poster by any stretch, but I think it speaks to the fact that most people prefer factually-based reasoning as opposed to the personal digs and idioms you put out. 

457-D3382-DEA9-4-A6-B-8410-0-A0-AE25-BAE

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On 4/13/2019 at 4:20 PM, Harper2Sox said:

But it’s true.  If you want to win, you spend money.  The Sox talked a big game about it and ended up with neither Machado nor Harper and an offseason of trash acquisitions.

If you want to spend money you spend money you can't operate on a mid market payroll and turn this roster into a winner. Can't be done. Now if we had Tatis up here along with Eloy and Kopech was healthy then that would be a different story but what allowed the Padres and Phillies to sign both players is quite frankly they are further along then we are.

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7 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

If you want to spend money you spend money you can't operate on a mid market payroll and turn this roster into a winner. Can't be done. Now if we had Tatis up here along with Eloy and Kopech was healthy then that would be a different story but what allowed the Padres and Phillies to sign both players is quite frankly they are further along then we are.

Just because the Sox are operating on a mid market payroll (or even lower) doesn’t mean that it’s all they can feasibly afford.  You must believe every word of BS that Kenny and Hahn spew.

Edited by Harper2Sox

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Since the report came out by Forbes a few weeks ago, has anybody noticed that none of the White Sox management team has said nothing about it. The reason why they haven't said anything is because they know that the Forbes report is fairly accurate. JR has said for years many times that a winning team is very expensive. Its easier making money with a losing low payroll team. This rebuild/tanking is going to be done as cheaply as possible. Hopefully these young players will start winning some games.

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