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27 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

What would be a good explanation for her to do that though? Not sure there is one other than because she's pissed/crazy.

This is a good question, and let me be more clear.

I do think the groundwork was laid for Danaerys to become if not mad, overly violent and despotic.

And what gets me isn't the overall arc its the narrative beats to describe it.

For me the issue was they have a scene of her perched on the dragon above the city. The bells are ringing. She won. All that she fought for is finally hers. She then decides to burn the city down. Is she thinking "i've lost everything, they've done this to me, they hate me?" Why did in that moment, in which she made a choice, did she choose that. They don't really give us anything that says in that moment it spurred her anger. 

It all came prior. So if it came prior that means it was premeditated. They, I believe, tried to show this in greyworm throwing the spear into the surrendering army.

If it was premeditated, we needed to have that feeling that we all know she was about to make the bad choice but didn't want her to anyway. Instead they went for more shock - she's going to make the good choice but turned bad.

That's my main issue. Narratively I agree that losing the dragon in that moment would sell the turn more effectively to me.

Another is a godfather-esque moment, where the camera shows her perched above the city, bells ringing, her tired and sad. Cut to greyworm giving orders to slaughter the retreating army. Cut to a group of unsullied arresting tyrion. Cut back to Dany, she is defiant/angry and takes off and starts laying flame. She planned it. While her former advisers thought she wasn't talking to anyone, she had been planning with the only person she trusts to lay waste to the city.

I think ultimately that's what the show runners were trying to show, among other more effective lessons on violence will never be triumphant - and that stuff was good.

But I don't think they came close to selling that in the moment. And because htey showed the moment dany made that choice, it seemed unbelievable to me, despite being someone who was bought into that arc.

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7 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

If the realization is for her to kill Dany instead of Cersei, that comes well after her decision to turn around. The Hound tells her that Cersei is going to die anyway and to not become him (e.g., a monster with a single minded goal of revenge). There is no connection between her decision to turn around and her realization that Dany is now her target. 

IF they had written the episode better and IF it was clear that Arya recognized this, then sure, it would be a great reason for her to turn around. 

And BTW, Arya killing Cersei is not a "twist." It's literally what everyone has been expecting for years now.

She realizes there's more to life than revenge. Everything she's done since season 1 was about revenge. Everything Dany's done is about gaining the throne. It was no coincidence they altered course at the same time. 

 

Dany no longer wanted the throne. She wanted to burn everyone, just like her father. 

Edited by TaylorStSox
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6 minutes ago, bmags said:

This is a good question, and let me be more clear.

I do think the groundwork was laid for Danaerys to become if not mad, overly violent and despotic.

And what gets me isn't the overall arc its the narrative beats to describe it.

For me the issue was they have a scene of her perched on the dragon above the city. The bells are ringing. She won. All that she fought for is finally hers. She then decides to burn the city down. Is she thinking "i've lost everything, they've done this to me, they hate me?" Why did in that moment, in which she made a choice, did she choose that. They don't really give us anything that says in that moment it spurred her anger. 

It all came prior. So if it came prior that means it was premeditated. They, I believe, tried to show this in greyworm throwing the spear into the surrendering army.

If it was premeditated, we needed to have that feeling that we all know she was about to make the bad choice but didn't want her to anyway. Instead they went for more shock - she's going to make the good choice but turned bad.

That's my main issue. Narratively I agree that losing the dragon in that moment would sell the turn more effectively to me.

Another is a godfather-esque moment, where the camera shows her perched above the city, bells ringing, her tired and sad. Cut to greyworm giving orders to slaughter the retreating army. Cut to a group of unsullied arresting tyrion. Cut back to Dany, she is defiant/angry and takes off and starts laying flame. She planned it. While her former advisers thought she wasn't talking to anyone, she had been planning with the only person she trusts to lay waste to the city.

I think ultimately that's what the show runners were trying to show, among other more effective lessons on violence will never be triumphant - and that stuff was good.

But I don't think they came close to selling that in the moment. And because htey showed the moment dany made that choice, it seemed unbelievable to me, despite being someone who was bought into that arc.

I don't disagree with you that there didn't seem to be a good reason for her to suddenly burn the entire city. I just rewatched the scene. The bells ring and she seems to calm down but then sees the Red Keep. The rage starts to build and then she flies off. 

IMO losing her second dragon wouldn't have been enough justification for me either. So, I think at the end of the day, "cuz she's mad and wants the world to pay" is the only satisfying answer to this. 

The Greyworm stuff is not signalizing premeditation, from my second viewing. I think it's pretty clear he sees her continuing to fight and then decides himself to also get his revenge and kill everyone in sight. The Double D's in the post-show comments also said this - she crossed that moral line and that allowed everyone else, even some of Jon's men, to do the same. 

 

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Book spoiler:  Clear departure, at the well the witch told Cersei that her children would die and she would die at the hand of her younger brother.  Part of her hatred of Tyrion but Jamie was born after her(twins) making him younger also.  I/many thought Jamie would complete his redemptive arc by killing her.  Since neither brother did it was a clear departure.  

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36 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I think the key here is she no longer has the best claim to the throne and just watched as one of her trusted advisors tried to undermine over just that.  Her only chance to get what she’s always felt she’s destined for (the throne) is now only achievable through fear and in this case outright slaughter.  The desire for power at all costs has turned her into the tyrant she always said she’d rid the world of.  Again, I think the producers really rushed this and should have built up this turn over more episodes.  IMO, it was a mistake to make these last two seasons shortened ones as it’s taken away some much needed character development to help explain all the end-game motivations.

Right, my critiques are more specifically how they setup that narrative not the story arc itself. It just needed more time to show.

It would be fine as a wikipedia page, it just didn't work within thrones where there has been such dedicated character and world building.

 

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31 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Arya's been on a suicide mission since season 1. She realized she has a purpose in the same episode Dany realized she no longer had a purpose. 

 

Is symbolism lost on all of you? I blame M Night Shyamalan. Everyone wants textbook story's with a twist now. 

I'll +1 this.

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3 minutes ago, BamaDoc said:

Book spoiler:  Clear departure, at the well the witch told Cersei that her children would die and she would die at the hand of her younger brother.  Part of her hatred of Tyrion but Jamie was born after her(twins) making him younger also.  I/many thought Jamie would complete his redemptive arc by killing her.  Since neither brother did it was a clear departure.  

Technically, wasn’t it true?  Jamie was holding at least two of the kids and Cersei at the moments of their deaths (“at the hand”)?

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3 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I don't disagree with you that there didn't seem to be a good reason for her to suddenly burn the entire city. I just rewatched the scene. The bells ring and she seems to calm down but then sees the Red Keep. The rage starts to build and then she flies off. 

IMO losing her second dragon wouldn't have been enough justification for me either. So, I think at the end of the day, "cuz she's mad and wants the world to pay" is the only satisfying answer to this. 

The Greyworm stuff is not signalizing premeditation, from my second viewing. I think it's pretty clear he sees her continuing to fight and then decides himself to also get his revenge and kill everyone in sight. The Double D's in the post-show comments also said this - she crossed that moral line and that allowed everyone else, even some of Jon's men, to do the same. 

 

Ah, I thought it was before. That makes sense. So yeah, just slight differences could have signaled something different.

War is hell just...it's important but to do it in the penultimate episode is a little strange for a choice.

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6 minutes ago, bmags said:

Right, my critiques are more specifically how they setup that narrative not the story arc itself. It just needed more time to show.

It would be fine as a wikipedia page, it just didn't work within thrones where there has been such dedicated character and world building.

 

I think if you go back and watch the last episode in Winterfell, Dany's turn makes a lot of sense. You can see her lose all meaning. Missandei put her over the edge, especially Missandei's final words being, "burn them all." 

 

This is also the same girl who's burned and crucified everyone in her path. Maybe it was justified, but it was who she is. 

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55 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

What would be a good explanation for her to do that though? Not sure there is one other than because she's pissed/crazy.

This may have already been covered, but this is my theory. She chose fear. What better way to inspire fear across all of Westeros than tales of what happened at Kings Landing? Nobody will want to be on her bad side as long as a dragon is alive. She stopped caring about love, and to inspire fear knew what she needed to do.

 

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I thought Arya's was good, she's been getting more of her humanity back throughout the season, one of the better jobs at thoughtful character development.

It's one of the limitations of tv/movies though, at least with arya they really have to beat you down with visual storytelling of her wandering in the city to show her the other side of violence again, as well as effectively propel her to her next beat and make it understandable.

I could see Arya both let the violence propel her to fight against Dany, or decide to leave fighting behind after feeling its impact again. And both I'd understand more.

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6 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

I think if you go back and watch the last episode in Winterfell, Dany's turn makes a lot of sense. You can see her lose all meaning. Missandei put her over the edge, especially Missandei's final words being, "burn them all." 

 

This is also the same girl who's burned and crucified everyone in her path. Maybe it was justified, but it was who she is. 

Again this is fine as a wikipedia page. But your last line, meh. She also put her dragons in a cave because they burned a little girl. She also tried to tell the dothraki to stop raping and murdering indiscriminantly. 

She was quite murderous to those in power but had been merciful to those not, until that moment.

"Because she lost missandei" - someone she'd barely spoken to on screen in 4 seasons. We just had to fill in the rest with our heads. A wikipedia page.

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2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Again this is fine as a wikipedia page. But your last line, meh. She also put her dragons in a cave because they burned a little girl. She also tried to tell the dothraki to stop raping and murdering indiscriminantly. 

She was quite murderous to those in power but had been merciful to those not, until that moment.

"Because she lost missandei" - someone she'd barely spoken to on screen in 4 seasons. We just had to fill in the rest with our heads. A wikipedia page.

She killed a lot people when her advisors told her to show mercy. She's crucified the slavers after they surrendered. Selmy sensed her turning. I think people are in denial because they liked her. 

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1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said:

She killed a lot people when her advisors told her to show mercy. She's crucified the slavers after they surrendered. Selmy sensed her turning. I think people are in denial because they liked her. 

No, because only last week I was saying they had laid the groundwork for Dany to turn only to now say they did a bad job showing why she turned in this episode. Because they did.

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

Instead they went for more shock

this has been D&D's problem since they ran outta book material

 

trying to recapture the 'magic' of Ned or the Red Wedding, but doing it in more jump-cut/shock ways than anything actually interesting with the story.

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50 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

For those that have read the books, at what point in this show did they pass the last book?

Jon Snow gets murdered. Daenrys is having violent diarrhea in a field somewhere with Drogon after being chased out of Mereen. Cersei's world is seemingly collapsing in around her as she's reached her post-"Shame!" lowpoint. Stannis is marching on a snow-bound Winterfell held by the Boltons. Littlefinger and Sansa are still in the Eyrie I think. Arya is still training in Braavos. Catelyn Stark is dead, but has been resurrected by the Brotherhood without Banners and just captured Brienne. Sandor is MIA. Varys murders Cersei's competent hand, Kevan Lannister.

 

e: basically, they completely out ran the books by the end of Season 5.

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I think Bran will end up king. He is now the most effective person to understand the cyclical violence, and it would make the cut away from tyrion/bran scene make sense.

The problem is that bran is a terrible character, but politically it could be effective, he could "break the wheel", he could regrant nominal independence to the north, dorne, iron islands etc. Sansa would rule the north.

He does not "want it", he is tortured by his power, etc. 

Jon will go hang out above the wall, wild and free. Him and tormund will embrace and ghost will jump on him and lick his face and he'll say "ghost you old dog".

Dany will just fall through a trap door or something because they won't know what to do with her.

It will end with a wire-esque montage. 

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