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2 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

She's crazy with rage. She's lost everything. She's born of incest from a whole line of psychos. It all makes sense to me. 

Daenerys has been many things in this series.  She's been impulsive, compassionate, and cold as ice.

Has she ever done anything to indicate she's insane?  (No, she hasn't).  

I can buy your "yeah, she has always been evil" argument, but you lose everyone when you say she's insane.  She has no history of being insane.

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

Again this is fine as a wikipedia page. But your last line, meh. She also put her dragons in a cave because they burned a little girl. She also tried to tell the dothraki to stop raping and murdering indiscriminantly. 

She was quite murderous to those in power but had been merciful to those not, until that moment.

"Because she lost missandei" - someone she'd barely spoken to on screen in 4 seasons. We just had to fill in the rest with our heads. A wikipedia page.

Yeah, Daenerys throughout the show has compassion for the poor and downtrodden (and slaves) and a ruthlessness towards her enemies.  This sudden change of character to killing everyone indiscriminately in King's Landing is not only staggering, it's also completely unbelievable.  I think @bmags is probably right; the showrunners could have convinced more people of the authenticity of the change if they had more time.

But here we are.  Take a nuanced character, make her the Mad Queen.  

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The build up to the decision when the blls rang is the entire series. Many times when she has given the "other" side a break, it has resulted in misfortune for her. Even in the beginning, she tries to save Mirri Maz Duur, which leads to the death of her unborn child. 

I guess I just dont think it really needed more explanation. 

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13 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Jon Snow gets murdered. Daenrys is having violent diarrhea in a field somewhere with Drogon after being chased out of Mereen. Cersei's world is seemingly collapsing in around her as she's reached her post-"Shame!" lowpoint. Stannis is marching on a snow-bound Winterfell held by the Boltons. Littlefinger and Sansa are still in the Eyrie I think. Arya is still training in Braavos. Catelyn Stark is dead, but has been resurrected by the Brotherhood without Banners and just captured Brienne. Sandor is MIA. Varys murders Cersei's competent hand, Kevan Lannister.

 

e: basically, they completely out ran the books by the end of Season 5.

You know if I had a dollar for every time this happened.  Am I right or what.

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Just now, GoSox05 said:

You know if I had a dollar for every time this happened.  Am I right or what.

I sure wish I had a dragon to ride to a bathroom whenever violent diarrhea hits me.

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7 minutes ago, Eloy Jiménez said:

Yeah, Daenerys throughout the show has compassion for the poor and downtrodden (and slaves) and a ruthlessness towards her enemies.  This sudden change of character to killing everyone indiscriminately in King's Landing is not only staggering, it's also completely unbelievable.  I think @bmags is probably right; the showrunners could have convinced more people of the authenticity of the change if they had more time.

But here we are.  Take a nuanced character, make her the Mad Queen.  

I think the problem is that people want to conclude she is the "Mad Queen", even though her story arc has 0 similarity to the "Mad King."

When she decimated King's Landing it wasnt because she was hearing voices or went crazy, it was culmination of being a ruler for years. She has come to the conclusion that she will never be the people's choice, and she never was going to give up her claim, so she did what she believed will preserve her rule. 

(Edit)

She made it pretty clear when she compared the people of Meereen to those of King's Landing. 

Edited by Soxbadger

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Her going mad is fleshed out/hinted at a bit more here and there in the books, especially with the prophecies/visions. I'm 100% sure her "Goes Mad" heel turn was the ending GRRM gave them when they started the show, but the showrunners didn't do a great job of building to it.

 

e: probably more generally, the brutal sack of King's Landing came from GRRM. It fits with his history of ~subverting tropes~* and shows what actually happened (and happens) an overwhelming majority of the time an enemy force takes a city. It's going to be really, really bad for a lot of people. It ties into a big theme in the books and something touched on a bit in the show, which is that most people do not give one single shit who sits on the throne. The nobles' games for control just lead to suffering for everyday people.

 

*don't mean this phrase negatively just wish I could think of something that's not so overused with this show/book series

Edited by StrangeSox

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1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

I think the problem is that people want to conclude she is the "Mad Queen", even though her story arc has 0 similarity to the "Mad King."

When she decimated King's Landing it wasnt because she was hearing voices or went crazy, it was culmination of being a ruler for years. She has come to the conclusion that she will never be the people's choice, and she never was going to give up her claim, so she did what she believed will preserve her rule. 

Yeah this is right, her arc as tragic figure just needed to be shown more. The convo with Tyrion and then Jon was just all they had for it really, which was not enough and also wasn't executed well enough. It's asking a lot of those scenes and the viewer.

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3 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Her going mad is fleshed out/hinted at a bit more here and there in the books, especially with the prophecies/visions. I'm 100% sure her "Goes Mad" heel turn was the ending GRRM gave them when they started the show, but the showrunners didn't do a great job of building to it.

Sometimes the show takes advantage of the world building happening in books/media around show to allow them to be lazy with storytelling, and at the same time sometimes they will say "well that's not present in the show, that was a book thing", and that is very frustrating.

Case in point - why even call Harry Strickland and the golden company those names if you aren't goign to do anything with them? They were relying on the media and book readers to give life to those people so you...cared they died? 

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Also gotta imagine that the Iron Throne no longer exists, hopefully my populist revolution resulting in the abolition of monarchy ending comes true!

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Have the showrunners said how much input they have gotten from Martin?

I wonder if they had an idea for something and went to him and he was like "no that is super dumb", if they would still do it.

Edited by GoSox05

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1 minute ago, bmags said:

Sometimes the show takes advantage of the world building happening in books/media around show to allow them to be lazy with storytelling, and at the same time sometimes they will say "well that's not present in the show, that was a book thing", and that is very frustrating.

Case in point - why even call Harry Strickland and the golden company those names if you aren't goign to do anything with them? They were relying on the media and book readers to give life to those people so you...cared they died? 

IIRC from an interview with the show runners (D&D), it was literally "oh we thought the name 'Golden Company' sounded cool!"

 

these same hacks dismissed the idea of themes in a story as "something for an 8th grade book report," and then shoved a literal white horse into the end for Arya twice

 

They are hacks, but the elements of GRRM's story you can still see peaking through in this episode were good.

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Just now, bmags said:

Yeah this is right, her arc as tragic figure just needed to be shown more. The convo with Tyrion and then Jon was just all they had for it really, which was not enough and also wasn't executed well enough. It's asking a lot of those scenes and the viewer.

Im not sure how she could have a more tragic arc than what she had.

Her first husband and unborn child are killed (possibly by a person who she helped save). In Meereen bad things happen, Barristan Selmy is killed, Grey Worm injured, a ton of people die. She gets across the sea. 1 dragon and Jorah die in a battle she doesnt even really care about but is doing for the "greater good". She goes to King's Landing, another dragon is killed, the person she loves "betray's her" and arguable her best friend is murdered.

I really thought that the bells were going to ring, she was going to stop fighting and then Cersei was going to take advantage and kill Dany's army. 

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1 minute ago, Soxbadger said:

Im not sure how she could have a more tragic arc than what she had.

Her first husband and unborn child are killed (possibly by a person who she helped save). In Meereen bad things happen, Barristan Selmy is killed, Grey Worm injured, a ton of people die. She gets across the sea. 1 dragon and Jorah die in a battle she doesnt even really care about but is doing for the "greater good". She goes to King's Landing, another dragon is killed, the person she loves "betray's her" and arguable her best friend is murdered.

I really thought that the bells were going to ring, she was going to stop fighting and then Cersei was going to take advantage and kill Dany's army. 

I'm talking about literal greek tragedy.

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I don't think she is the mad queen as much as she is the grieving and irrationally angry queen.  From what I have read, her father enjoyed doing what he did, looked forward to it.   She was pushed into it

doesnt make it right,  but their motivations were not the same

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6 minutes ago, Steve9347 said:

 

I assume they mean because he went from evil to good, got with the moral Brienne, and then left her to get back with his evil sister right at the end?

Yeah, it was a little weird and not my favorite end for his character.

Edited by Harper2Sox

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Most character development was either thrown out the window or arrested.  Jon Snow, Sansa, Arya got the best of it.  They're pretty much the same now as they were in season 6.  Brienne, Jamie, and Daenerys were tossed and the result is pretty terrible.

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2 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

The person has to be dead. 

In the show, doesn't Jaqen H'ghar wear Arya's face at some point?  The rules of Faceless Man magic are not very well defined on the show.

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Character development.  The show is ending and people are going to die.  This has been happening on this show for 8 seasons. 

Do people think that Jaime Lannister was going to make it out of this alive.  I always assumed his was going to die, with just about everyone else. Are people just mad at the way he died?  I'm just not sure that matters.

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the timing on this *chef's kiss*

 

still not as bad as the several thousand poor children named daenerys over the past several years

 

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