Jake Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Similar speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 I can't believe this topic has 50 posts 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Just now, mqr said: I can't believe this topic has 50 posts Yup, / thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jake said: Interesting. Wonder what their home to 2nd and etc times are. Billy is so much better on the bases it's amazing Engel speed is similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Just now, mqr said: I can't believe this topic has 50 posts It's a better topic than when is Jay coming back from the DL, sorry I meant IL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Did you not look at his college numbers?  He hit .236 in his final year, what do you think? And he had an aluminum bat.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Interesting. Wonder what their home to 2nd and etc times are. Billy is so much better on the bases it's amazing Engel speed is similar. Just goes to show you there's more to it than speed, I think. Clearly stealing bases has a major skill component, but the other metrics of baserunning success that don't consider stolen bases show Hamilton is quite a bit ahead of Engel as well. That being said, those same metrics would tell you Engel is a very good baserunner but Hamilton is just special. That being said, the difference is more dramatic defensively. Hamilton is a very good defender but Engel is really special and has added more value in many fewer innings since Statcast started keeping track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Interesting. Wonder what their home to 2nd and etc times are. Billy is so much better on the bases it's amazing Engel speed is similar. Also, Statcast's metrics on 90 foot runs had Engel 0.01 seconds faster than Hamilton (so basically the same) last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jake said: Just goes to show you there's more to it than speed, I think. Clearly stealing bases has a major skill component, but the other metrics of baserunning success that don't consider stolen bases show Hamilton is quite a bit ahead of Engel as well. That being said, those same metrics would tell you Engel is a very good baserunner but Hamilton is just special. That being said, the difference is more dramatic defensively. Hamilton is a very good defender but Engel is really special and has added more value in many fewer innings since Statcast started keeping track. Hamilton is a hell of a defensive cfer. Not many I'd take over him with a large enough sample size. His arm blows though. Sprint speed is straight line speed too - which isnt as valuable when running the bases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019  I think talent evaluation is more important to an organization than (position) player development. Another way of saying that is that player development can be overrated.  Palka and Emgel are prime examples of guys who will never be full time major league players no matter what they do in terms of preparation.  Fulmer might be in the same category - a guy who can throw hard but cannot locate his pitches consistently no matter what adjustments he makes. On the other hand there are players like Luis Robert and Madrigal that don't need to be developed much because they already have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 This thread is three pages too long. It's as simple as the player isn't good at all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, tray said:  I think talent evaluation is more important to an organization than (position) player development. Another way of saying that is that player development can be overrated.  Palka and Emgel are prime examples of guys who will never be full time major league players no matter what they do in terms of preparation.  Fulmer might be in the same category - a guy who can throw hard but cannot locate his pitches consistently no matter what adjustments he makes. On the other hand there are players like Luis Robert and Madrigal that don't need to be developed much because they already have it. The smartest organizations that have won a lot of games have spent loads on player development. That should be a huge tell that it matters greatly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, bmags said: The smartest organizations that have won a lot of games have spent loads on player development. That should be a huge tell that it matters greatly. Those same said organizations have spent a lot of money on scouting, data analysis and etc as well. To decipher which one has had the greatest impact would require access to information we don't have. Edited April 23, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said: Look, I'm not a Sox development defender by any means, but look at Engels stats including college http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?ID=163282 you don't take a guy and just "make" him into a good hitter. Â He wasn't a good hitter in college, the minors, and now the majors. Â There is no flipping a switch, he is a good defender who occasionally gets good runs at the plate which are greatly outweighed by his bad runs Really have to give Engel credit for making it as far as he did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Really have to give Engel credit for making it as far as he did. It's impressive that he made it to AAA. Anything past that, however, is more general ineptitude by the White Sox talent evaluation than Engel being worthy of any praise 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 40 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Those same said organizations have spent a lot of money on scouting, data analysis and etc as well. To decipher which one has had the greatest impact would require access to information we don't have. It would require access to data they have, and they've spent money on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 4 hours ago, poppysox said: This guy really has great natural gifts of speed, strength and quick reactions. Why can't someone coach him into becoming a competent hitter. I fear the moment we cut him loose the next team will turn him into a star. Most guys just don't have his physical gifts so I just hate that coaching can't find that key to unlock all that raw talent. I understand that lots of guys have failed at hitting that object moving at 95 mph but not many of them have Engel's raw talents. I keep hoping he pulls a Moncada and one day shows up with it all sinking in. He is young and needs experience. One thing for sure is he tries hard to improve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Friday Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Jose Abreu said: I've never understood the people who think Engel has all this untapped potential offensively. He's the worst hitter I've ever seen, literally Literally? You’ve never seen a T-ball game? Those kids are brutal.  As others have said, hitting isn’t easy. He’s a fantastic athlete, but athleticism isn’t a prerequisite for being a good hitter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Really have to give Engel credit for making it as far as he did. Lol this is true. Â He didn't really prove that he should have been pushed like he was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 All the way up through the minors the guy somehow kept his head slightly above water. I was hoping he could be a .240 hitter in the majors, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Lillian said: Hitting is a skill, which has very little to do with athleticism. Some of the greatest hitters have been guys who didn't have much natural athleticism, and many great athletes have failed and developing the skill. Good eye sight and strong hands are probably a lot more important than foot speed and strength. In any case, it can take a long time to learn to hit Major League pitching and few players are given that opportunity, if they don't quickly succeed. The Sox do not appear to have great coaching, to help hitters to develop the skill, which is very unfortunate, for a young team. Engel has actually had some very good at bats, lately and has hit some balls very hard. He cannot repeat his swing. Big problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: He has a swing that literally would make most DIII coaches cringe. I've never seen a MLB player with less power that has such an awful long swing and bat path. They've surely worked with him to try and get looser and more upright but as everybody noted it's not easy. That's the swing he'll always have. He's a decent 4th OF, nothing more nothing less. The average golfer goes to the pro...moves his grip a little...changes his stance...he hits the ball a little better. With a very coordinated athlete and full time coaching you would think anyone would improve a little bit. He can leg out 50 hits a year the average guy can't. At the end of the day...what are the coaches trying to do? If as some suggest they've given up he doesn't belong on the team. I guess that means management hasn't given up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Every time I see this thread title  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, poppysox said: The average golfer goes to the pro...moves his grip a little...changes his stance...he hits the ball a little better. With a very coordinated athlete and full time coaching you would think anyone would improve a little bit. He can leg out 50 hits a year the average guy can't. At the end of the day...what are the coaches trying to do? If as some suggest they've given up he doesn't belong on the team. I guess that means management hasn't given up. Adam Engel isn't an average pro. In fact, he is not a pro. There's no reason for him to be on a major league roster that is legitimately trying to win baseball games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, poppysox said: The average golfer goes to the pro...moves his grip a little...changes his stance...he hits the ball a little better. With a very coordinated athlete and full time coaching you would think anyone would improve a little bit. He can leg out 50 hits a year the average guy can't. At the end of the day...what are the coaches trying to do? If as some suggest they've given up he doesn't belong on the team. I guess that means management hasn't given up. yea but in golf there are two huge differences: 1) player initiates swing when he's ready via waggle 2) ball isn't moving I'd say that while both are complicated, a golf swing is easier to replicate in ideal conditions (not saying 12 on Sunday at Augusta with the wind and a 2 shot lead and Brooks and Tiger breathing down your neck...) than a baseball swing. Engel had his swing "fixed" for a couple weeks in spring training of '18 but under pressure reverted back to the same awful mechanics. As noted, he almost literally has no coil. He lunges at the ball instead of turning on it and his head moves quite a bit which leads to contact issues as well as a power drain. Edited April 23, 2019 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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