Passing a Runner after hitting a home run

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It was 100% Abreu's fault. The trail runner is responsible for knowing where the lead runner is - that's literally all there is to it. The trail runner has the lead runner in front of him while the lead runners job is to focus on the play in front of him.

I said it then but this isnt even queationable. Cali you're breaking this down far too much. It's as simple as the trial runner needs to always know where the lead runner is. That's baseball fundamentals 101.

Sorry Ray I have a hard time blaming Abreu when he did the best possible thing in that situation which is hitting a  3 run HR that in most situation puts your team up by 2 runs. Yes some of the blame lies with Abreu because you're right he shouldn't be passing up the base runner. But he deserves the least amount of blame . There are reasons why in that situation the Tim should go halfway which I have outlined many times and won't bother to rehash.

However I have asked an outside source to read the thread and give me his opinion. His family runs an instruction baseball clinic online and I have asked him to read the thread and give me his opinion. I don't know if he will or not.

I just have a hard time accepting some of the other arguments that that ignore the possibility that the ball might remain in the field of play and not be caught because he thinks it's either a HR or going to be caught completely ignoring the very real chance that  high flies balls are not always caught at the wall . We see highlights of that kind of thing happening every night .

It is not as simple as you say it is. In that situation 1st and foremost the tying run needs to score from 3rd is also Baseball 101.

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Jose Abreu]

You keep using the term "Baseball 101" and telling us to learn the game. Part of "Baseball 101" is knowing your strengths and weaknesses, which in this case dictate that Tim Anderson tagging from first to second is not an inherently risky decision.

[mqr]

15 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

You keep using the term "Baseball 101" and telling us to learn the game. Part of "Baseball 101" is knowing your strengths and weaknesses, which in this case dictate that Tim Anderson tagging from first to second is not an inherently risky decision.

If deciding when to tag or not is baseball 101, knowing not to run past the guy in front of you is second grade stuff. There's nuance to what Tim did, the only nuance for Abreu is 'Don't'.

Edited April 29, 2019 by mqr

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, mqr said:

If deciding when to tag or not is baseball 101, knowing not to run past the guy in front of you is second grade stuff. There's nuance to what Tim did, the only nuance for Abreu is 'Don't'.

I agree. The other thing is, with Anderson where he was, Abreu had very little if any chance at 2B if the ball somehow stayed in the park anyway. He would have had to make sure TA would have made 3rd and the throw to 2B is a lot shorter and he a lot slower, so it basically was HR or single or out for him. either stay on 1B or not even get there until the play develops. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Dick Allen

[SoxBlanco]

31 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Sorry Ray I have a hard time blaming Abreu when he did the best possible thing in that situation which is hitting a  3 run HR that in most situation puts your team up by 2 runs. Yes some of the blame lies with Abreu because you're right he shouldn't be passing up the base runner. But he deserves the least amount of blame . There are reasons why in that situation the Tim should go halfway which I have outlined many times and won't bother to rehash.

However I have asked an outside source to read the thread and give me his opinion. His family runs an instruction baseball clinic online and I have asked him to read the thread and give me his opinion. I don't know if he will or not.

I just have a hard time accepting some of the other arguments that that ignore the possibility that the ball might remain in the field of play and not be caught because he thinks it's either a HR or going to be caught completely ignoring the very real chance that  high flies balls are not always caught at the wall . We see highlights of that kind of thing happening every night .

It is not as simple as you say it is. In that situation 1st and foremost the tying run needs to score from 3rd is also Baseball 101.

 

I think you need to stop worrying about the guy on third base. Of course you want to tie the game, but the moment Abreu hit it deep, the game was going to be tied. I know you have described a scenario where Anderson tags and gets thrown out before the runner crosses home, but that was not going to happen. 

Does your opinion change if the game was already tied and there was only one runner on first base?  If the answer is no (like it is for me), then there is no reason to even discuss the guy on third base.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

No, you can’t keep saying this. You can’t tell me “I don’t care how fast Tim is” and then say that. You’re just completely ignoring his speed to suit your narrative. This scenario would not have happened, unless Tim tripped while running or something, which is so unlikely that it’s not even worth discussing. 

I can keep saying it and do you know why ? I have not once seen you mention how strong an outfielders arm might be. A strong throw from lets say straightaway left field is a relatively easy throw to make. How long do you think a good throw takes from the warning track to 2nd base ? A few seconds 2? 2.5 ?. 3 ? How long does it takes for Tim to tag up starting from 1st with no momentum to reach 2nd base . Perhaps it is the same amount of time. Perhaps it is greater or less time. The last thing you risk in that situation is a DP which prevents the tying run from scoring. Primary goal . Tie the game. Secondary goal, get Timmy into scoring position. It's simply risk aversion. Do not risk the primary goal for a secondary goal. If you can show me stats that indicate every single throw will not beat Andersons time to 2nd base starting from a dead stop then I will concede .

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Sorry Ray I have a hard time blaming Abreu when he did the best possible thing in that situation which is hitting a  3 run HR that in most situation puts your team up by 2 runs. Yes some of the blame lies with Abreu because you're right he shouldn't be passing up the base runner. But he deserves the least amount of blame . There are reasons why in that situation the Tim should go halfway which I have outlined many times and won't bother to rehash.

However I have asked an outside source to read the thread and give me his opinion. His family runs an instruction baseball clinic online and I have asked him to read the thread and give me his opinion. I don't know if he will or not.

I just have a hard time accepting some of the other arguments that that ignore the possibility that the ball might remain in the field of play and not be caught because he thinks it's either a HR or going to be caught completely ignoring the very real chance that  high flies balls are not always caught at the wall . We see highlights of that kind of thing happening every night .

It is not as simple as you say it is. In that situation 1st and foremost the tying run needs to score from 3rd is also Baseball 101.

 

To me it's that simple. My college coach would not have been critical of the lead runner at all. Same for any coaches prior to that. It honestly is that simple. You're looking too far into this. 

Tim's job on a deep fly ball to center is not to look where Jose Abreu is. Part of Abreu's job is to know where the lead runner is.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[mqr]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

To me it's that simple. My college coach would not have been critical of the lead runner at all. Same for any coaches prior to that. It honestly is that simple. You're looking too far into this. 

Tim's job on a deep fly ball to center is not to look where Jose Abreu is. Part of Abreu's job is to know where the lead runner is.

Exactly, whether or not it was the right decision to run is moot. Maybe, it was a bad decision for Anderson to tag up on it's own for one reason or another, but that reason isn't because there is a runner coming up behind him. 

[Jose Abreu]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I can keep saying it and do you know why ? I have not once seen you mention how strong an outfielders arm might be. A strong throw from lets say straightaway left field is a relatively easy throw to make. How long do you think a good throw takes from the warning track to 2nd base ? A few seconds 2? 2.5 ?. 3 ? How long does it takes for Tim to tag up starting from 1st with no momentum to reach 2nd base . Perhaps it is the same amount of time. Perhaps it is greater or less time. The last thing you risk in that situation is a DP which prevents the tying run from scoring. Primary goal . Tie the game. Secondary goal, get Timmy into scoring position. It's simply risk aversion. Do not risk the primary goal for a secondary goal. If you can show me stats that indicate every single throw will not beat Andersons time to 2nd base starting from a dead stop then I will concede .

Except I did mention that, in my first post. I said that no matter how good the fielder's arm is, Anderson is too fast to get thrown out on a ball hit that deep. I'm not going to waste my time looking up stats since you're the lone individual who disagrees that Anderson's speed is a factor in your scenarios. 

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

To me it's that simple. My college coach would not have been critical of the lead runner at all. Same for any coaches prior to that. It honestly is that simple. You're looking too far into this. 

Tim's job on a deep fly ball to center is not to look where Jose Abreu is. Part of Abreu's job is to know where the lead runner is.

It is also part of the 1st base coaches job.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Well I said I would go to an outside source and he has emailed me and this is his response. I did not know him .I just saw his tutorials on youtube and just decided to see what his opinion is. I got his permission to print his response and his website. You can decide for yourself if you think his family's credentials are worthy.

  

From: Matt - Antonelli Baseball <matt@antonellibaseball.com>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 8:08:28 PM
To: ro.......
Subject: Re: Argument

 

I just watched the play. I think most of the times you will see the runner go as far as they can to 2nd while making sure if the ball is caught they can retreat. However, you do every now and then see a fast runner retreat to tag in an attempt to get into scoring position with 2 outs. Typically you are only going to do this when it is a very deep flyball AND you are very sure the ball is going to be caught. Since this ball was a home run and wasn't a sure catch, I would be as far off the bag as possible while still being able to get back if the outfielder somehow robs the HR. I do think as the hitter you also need to be aware of the runner and the possiblity that he could be tagging (sometimes that is tough as you are looking to see if the ball gets out of the park or not). Crazy play for sure and it's much easier to judge everything from our angle, but those are my overall thoughts. 

 

Thanks!!

 

Matt

 

 

[bighurt574]

22 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

To me it's that simple. My college coach would not have been critical of the lead runner at all. Same for any coaches prior to that. It honestly is that simple. You're looking too far into this. 

Tim's job on a deep fly ball to center is not to look where Jose Abreu is. Part of Abreu's job is to know where the lead runner is.

 

Agree, even if Anderson was being dumb, it's on Abreu to be watching the baserunners in front of him.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

19 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

Except I did mention that, in my first post. I said that no matter how good the fielder's arm is, Anderson is too fast to get thrown out on a ball hit that deep. I'm not going to waste my time looking up stats since you're the lone individual who disagrees that Anderson's speed is a factor in your scenarios. 

No I'm not . I'm the only individual who is challenging the majority. It is sometimes daunting for other posters to stand with a minority opinion. I don't think my position is outrageous by any means. Primary goal win the game, Must  tie the game before you can win it., Secondary goal get the guy on 1st into scoring position but not at the possible expense of the tying run and put him in a position to score if the ball stays in the park but not caught. SO not only are you risking the primary goal by having him tag up you are also risking the  other secondary goal of Tim scoring is not caught but stays in the park by going at least halfway if not more  What's more important Tim getting to 2nd base or  him scoring if we give the chance of a catch or not a catch equal chances. Your way  the catch is made and he gets to 2nd base .  My way the catch is possibly not made he gets a possible 3 bases and scores and uses that speed for more bases.

Also my outside source has answered my email . You can read for yourself what he said.

[mqr]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

No I'm not . I'm the only individual who is challenging the majority. It is sometimes daunting for other posters to stand with a minority opinion. I don't think my position is outrageous by any means. Primary goal win the game, Must  tie the game before you can win it., Secondary goal get the guy on 1st into scoring position but not at the possible expense of the tying run and put him in a position to score if the ball stays in the park but not caught. SO not only are you risking the primary goal by having him tag up you are also risking the  other secondary goal of Tim scoring is not caught but stays in the park by going at least halfway if not more  What's more important Tim getting to 2nd base or  him scoring if we give the chance of a catch or not a catch equal chances. Your way  the catch is made and he gets to 2nd base .  My way the catch is possibly not made he gets a possible 3 bases and scores and uses that speed for more bases.

 Also my outside source has answered my email . You can read for yourself what he said.

But we're not discussing whether tim tagging was a mistake, were discussing who that extra out is on and it is always on the trail runner. If we were you'd have a point, but we're not.

Edited April 30, 2019 by mqr

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, mqr said:

But we're not discussing whether tim tagging was a mistake, were discussing who that extra out is on and it is always on the trail runner. If we were you'd have a point, but we're not.

They are one and the same my friend. If he was not tagging he would be close to 2nd base instead of in a position to be passed.

[mqr]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They are one and the same my friend. If he was not tagging he would be close to 2nd base instead of in a position to be passed.

If Abreu was aware of the guy in front of him, he would not have passed him. Something that should be done 100% of the time. Not 90% of the time, or 99% percent of the time. Literally, every ball hit from now until the end of time. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 minutes ago, mqr said:

If Abreu was aware of the guy in front of him, he would not have passed him. Something that should be done 100% of the time. Not 90% of the time, or 99% percent of the time. Literally, every ball hit from now until the end of time. 

Look I was being as objective as possible and even willing to contact an outside source and risk that he might also disagree with me. Did you read his response? It clearly sides with me. I did not say Timmy was at 100% fault clearly some of it is on Abreu and the 1st base coach but even my outside souce said " I do think as the hitter you also need to be aware of the runner and the possiblity that he could be tagging (sometimes that is tough as you are looking to see if the ball gets out of the park or not)."

I also mentioned that in my numerous posts on the subject and  that Abreu also has to take his eyes off the play to make sure he steps on 1st base.

Edited April 30, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

More support for me. An article by Cal Ripken Jr. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2006-01-22-0601190335-story.html   

Tagging up from first base often isn't a winning strategy

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

More support for me. An article by Cal Ripken Jr. https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2006-01-22-0601190335-story.html   

Tagging up from first base often isn't a winning strategy

What Anderson did may have been stupid, but passing him up was more stupid. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

What Anderson did may have been stupid, but passing him up was more stupid. 

Yea hitting that 3 run HR was pretty stupid. Abreu did what he was supposed to do he hit a HR looked down to touch 1st base and lost track of Tim while not expecting him to be standing at 1st base.  There is also a 1st base coach to yell hey Jose slow down or stop don't pass Timmy. Lots of mistakes and stupidity to go around . Abreu should be the last one blamed. He did the best thing possible, he hit the damn ball out of the park .

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yea hitting that 3 run HR was pretty stupid. Abreu did what he was supposed to do he hit a HR looked down to touch 1st base and lost track of Tim while not expecting him to be standing at 1st base.  There is also a 1st base coach to yell hey Jose slow down or stop don't pass Timmy. Lots of mistakes and stupidity to go around . Abreu should be the last one blamed. He did the best thing possible, he hit the damn ball out of the park .

You are supposed to watch what is in front of you What if Anderson fell down or hurt himself? It wasn't a no doubter, and this wasn't the first time Jose played baseball. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You are supposed to watch what is in front of you What if Anderson fell down or hurt himself? It wasn't a no doubter, and this wasn't the first time Jose played baseball. 

Hey my outside source and Cal Ripken both think Anderson should not have been even close to 1st base. Take it up with them. If he was where he was supposed to be ABreu doesn't even come close to him.

Edited April 30, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hey my outside source and Cal Ripken both think Anderson should not have been even close to 1st base. Take it up with them. If he was where he was supposed to be ABreu doesn't even come close to him.

But he was. Does Jose not have a responsibility to see the baserunner in front of him? If a ball gets away from the catcher isn't the runner on 1st responsible for making sure the runner on 2nd actually goes to 3rd before he takes off? It's the same concept. Maybe Anderson should have been somewhere else, but he wasn't. That doesn't mean you pass him up. It's a rare occurrence. Guys get hung up a lot more often because they don't pass someone. On a deep flyball that is either going to be a home run or caught, I would want all my runners tagging. At the very least, make him make a throw. Maybe it winds up wild.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Dick Allen

[SoxBlanco]

55 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hey my outside source and Cal Ripken both think Anderson should not have been even close to 1st base. Take it up with them. If he was where he was supposed to be ABreu doesn't even come close to him.

I had 7 outside sources chime in. They all said it was heads-up base running to try to go back and tag there.

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

You are supposed to watch what is in front of you What if Anderson fell down or hurt himself? It wasn't a no doubter, and this wasn't the first time Jose played baseball. 

I thought the 1st base coach was suppose to be watching the game as well.