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Jack Parkman

The Rick Hahn Haters thread, sponsored by Balta1701 and Jack Parkman

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On 5/4/2019 at 5:44 PM, ottawa_sox said:

I feel like it took Hahn 2 years to convince Reinsdorf / Williams to stop 'going for it' with over-the-hill, off-season fill-ins.  So we've had a lot of change in 3 years - Hostetler / Getz/ Paddy.  3 years feels like approaching the edge for me too.  And I get the development / injury angle, but I always feel squeamish when an injury results in a finger quickly being pointed at someone in management.  You would think mostly it's just plain bad luck.

There are two things that specifically highlight to me how this group is still worse than at this point all other teams:

- re: the bolded - they have still targeted the exact same types of veterans to "fill out the team". The expectation may be lower, but that they still are attracted to these players who have almost universally performed below expectations is a huge red flag to me. I don't care if we aren't trying to win the division, every player acquisition should be made with some idea of what their productionw ill be and they should hit it or it fails. Nearly all have failed.

- The other is a post balta made a while ago. Nearly all successful rebuilds had "a thing" that the org did that zigged where others zagged and found excess value. The only place I could have seen where sox did that was with relief pitchers. They specifically targeted in the draft, with excess intl bonus pool money, and in trades minor league and/or college relievers and even had quotes that fabian thought this could be the new moneyball or whatever. This has shown to be a waste of resources and the only decent one we seem to have groomed (who is bad this year) was Fry, who was a traditional starting pitcher to bullpen guy. 

Everything else I think is either premature or just possibly bad luck, but these will handicap the success of whatever comes of this rebuidl if we keep the same front office. 

Only I can fix it if they put me in charge as GM.

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2 hours ago, bmags said:

There are two things that specifically highlight to me how this group is still worse than at this point all other teams:

- re: the bolded - they have still targeted the exact same types of veterans to "fill out the team". The expectation may be lower, but that they still are attracted to these players who have almost universally performed below expectations is a huge red flag to me. I don't care if we aren't trying to win the division, every player acquisition should be made with some idea of what their productionw ill be and they should hit it or it fails. Nearly all have failed.

- The other is a post balta made a while ago. Nearly all successful rebuilds had "a thing" that the org did that zigged where others zagged and found excess value. The only place I could have seen where sox did that was with relief pitchers. They specifically targeted in the draft, with excess intl bonus pool money, and in trades minor league and/or college relievers and even had quotes that fabian thought this could be the new moneyball or whatever. This has shown to be a waste of resources and the only decent one we seem to have groomed (who is bad this year) was Fry, who was a traditional starting pitcher to bullpen guy. 

Everything else I think is either premature or just possibly bad luck, but these will handicap the success of whatever comes of this rebuidl if we keep the same front office. 

Only I can fix it if they put me in charge as GM.

I have no idea if this is true or not but the fact that you ID'd as the only possible where they thought they could find value cracks me up.  College relievers are the new moneyball!  And yet they won't even consider using an opener.  If they are targeting relievers you'd think they'd be open to changing how they use them to get more value.

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2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm not saying that it is impossible, I just don't trust the morons running the FO to get the job done. Probably the healthiest way to look at it is to look at only known quantities and what is happening now. I can't help myself from thinking bigger picture, but the best approach is to just let this season play out and see what happens. Idk, maybe I need to lower my standards and not expect as much. 

I know it's a message board so we live in the moment, in the here and now. And right now it's bleak. Nothing we can do about it. Gripe all you want about the future or the current suckage . That's you right and without it we have no message board.

Just remember I will be here for as long as I can to point out that all is not doom and gloom . Granted it's a lot of gloom and doom and we as fans expect competent management. I don't mind being that guy who knows there  are many reasons to complain and will complain myself , but overall I'm mostly like , let it play out. If we end up with no World Series win in the next 6 years maybe the team is still playing good ball after that. I don't know , I don't have a clue how things will be. It's like making a prediction on the Sox record after 30 games. I was pretty close 1 game off. In that prediction  I know the roster I know the talent I know the schedule and try to look at it without prejudice . But what do you know about who is going to be here in a year ,2 years, 3 ,4 ,5 ,6 ? Not a whole hell of a lot. Maybe Jerry dies, maybe Hahn and Kenny are gone.

I'm not saying lower your standards, just learn to live with the results because there's not a damn thing you can do about them. We all have standards on what to expect from a wife, a girlfriend, our friends ,our jobs and we have some degree of control over those things . Without any control makes no sense to me to stay upset for very long or howl at the moon too often.

Que será, será
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será

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11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I know it's a message board so we live in the moment, in the here and now. And right now it's bleak. Nothing we can do about it. Gripe all you want about the future or the current suckage . That's you right and without it we have no message board.

Just remember I will be here for as long as I can to point out that all is not doom and gloom . Granted it's a lot of gloom and doom and we as fans expect competent management. I don't mind being that guy who knows there  are many reasons to complain and will complain myself , but overall I'm mostly like , let it play out. If we end up with no World Series win in the next 6 years maybe the team is still playing good ball after that. I don't know , I don't have a clue how things will be. It's like making a prediction on the Sox record after 30 games. I was pretty close 1 game off. In that prediction  I know the roster I know the talent I know the schedule and try to look at it without prejudice . But what do you know about who is going to be here in a year ,2 years, 3 ,4 ,5 ,6 ? Not a whole hell of a lot. Maybe Jerry dies, maybe Hahn and Kenny are gone.

I'm not saying lower your standards, just learn to live with the results because there's not a damn thing you can do about them. We all have standards on what to expect from a wife, a girlfriend, our friends ,our jobs and we have some degree of control over those things . Without any control makes no sense to me to stay upset for very long or howl at the moon too often.

Que será, será
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será

I agree with this Philosophy. We have no control over it so all we can do is b**** and complain. Sometimes it is therapeutic to do so. That is why I'm complaining. Big picture, I know you're right. I occasionally need to complain and get super negative. It's only temporary though.

If 500 fans turned up at 333 W. 35th St  with torches and pitchforks demanding that Hahn and Kenny are fired, it wouldn't move the needle one bit. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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19 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Now it's a six year rebuild....interesting.

Yes, the idea of a six year rebuild after eight preceding years without one postseason appearance is preposterous. 

We are currently in the 4th longest playoff drought in baseball, with only four playoff games and one playoff win in the 13 years since the World Series in '05, so to suggest that it's somehow reasonable and ok to extend this inability to content for yet another three years is just crazy talk.  

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Ok...I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

1st...everybody thought at the time acquiring Giolito, Lopez and Dunning was a ridiculously one-sided score at the time. It's not really Hahn's fault that for some reason Giolito and Lopez really hasn't developed as fast or even at all like most thought.  So then you come down to...is it Cooper's fault?  Is it Hahn's fault Dunning had to have TJ?

Same with Kopech...not Hahn's fault he needed TJ as well. 

On the flip side....you have Cease who is going to be a star IMO...and when Kopech gets back he eventually will be as well. Hopefully that pushes Giolito and Lopez as well. Most figured when Eloy showed up it would push Moncada...and he hasn't disappointed. Yoan is quasi super star status right now IMO. 

We haven't even touched what Eloy can do yet...and he will rake. It's a matter of time. 

And let's not forget the young super star in waiting down in Birmingham either...Mr Luis Robert.

So yeah...it sucks right now that the Sox haven't lived up to everyone's hopes and expectations...but a lot of this is hardly Hahn's fault.  Not landing Manny...partially.  Giving idiotic contracts to the likes of Jon Jay and Jones...yeah.  But there really is a light at the end of the tunnel IMO.

And last but not least...he really scored with the signing of McCann...who's been nothing short of spectacular so far. His only mistake was only making it a one year deal.

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5 hours ago, Wanne said:

Ok...I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

1st...everybody thought at the time acquiring Giolito, Lopez and Dunning was a ridiculously one-sided score at the time. It's not really Hahn's fault that for some reason Giolito and Lopez really hasn't developed as fast or even at all like most thought.  So then you come down to...is it Cooper's fault?  Is it Hahn's fault Dunning had to have TJ?

Same with Kopech...not Hahn's fault he needed TJ as well. 

On the flip side....you have Cease who is going to be a star IMO...and when Kopech gets back he eventually will be as well. Hopefully that pushes Giolito and Lopez as well. Most figured when Eloy showed up it would push Moncada...and he hasn't disappointed. Yoan is quasi super star status right now IMO. 

We haven't even touched what Eloy can do yet...and he will rake. It's a matter of time. 

And let's not forget the young super star in waiting down in Birmingham either...Mr Luis Robert.

So yeah...it sucks right now that the Sox haven't lived up to everyone's hopes and expectations...but a lot of this is hardly Hahn's fault.  Not landing Manny...partially.  Giving idiotic contracts to the likes of Jon Jay and Jones...yeah.  But there really is a light at the end of the tunnel IMO.

And last but not least...he really scored with the signing of McCann...who's been nothing short of spectacular so far. His only mistake was only making it a one year deal.

McCann has one additional year or control through arbitration.

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5 hours ago, Wanne said:

Ok...I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

1st...everybody thought at the time acquiring Giolito, Lopez and Dunning was a ridiculously one-sided score at the time. It's not really Hahn's fault that for some reason Giolito and Lopez really hasn't developed as fast or even at all like most thought.  So then you come down to...is it Cooper's fault?  Is it Hahn's fault Dunning had to have TJ?

Same with Kopech...not Hahn's fault he needed TJ as well. 

On the flip side....you have Cease who is going to be a star IMO...and when Kopech gets back he eventually will be as well. Hopefully that pushes Giolito and Lopez as well. Most figured when Eloy showed up it would push Moncada...and he hasn't disappointed. Yoan is quasi super star status right now IMO. 

We haven't even touched what Eloy can do yet...and he will rake. It's a matter of time. 

And let's not forget the young super star in waiting down in Birmingham either...Mr Luis Robert.

So yeah...it sucks right now that the Sox haven't lived up to everyone's hopes and expectations...but a lot of this is hardly Hahn's fault.  Not landing Manny...partially.  Giving idiotic contracts to the likes of Jon Jay and Jones...yeah.  But there really is a light at the end of the tunnel IMO.

And last but not least...he really scored with the signing of McCann...who's been nothing short of spectacular so far. His only mistake was only making it a one year deal.

I agree with everything you said.

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6 hours ago, Wanne said:

Ok...I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

1st...everybody thought at the time acquiring Giolito, Lopez and Dunning was a ridiculously one-sided score at the time. It's not really Hahn's fault that for some reason Giolito and Lopez really hasn't developed as fast or even at all like most thought.  So then you come down to...is it Cooper's fault?  Is it Hahn's fault Dunning had to have TJ?

Same with Kopech...not Hahn's fault he needed TJ as well. 

On the flip side....you have Cease who is going to be a star IMO...and when Kopech gets back he eventually will be as well. Hopefully that pushes Giolito and Lopez as well. Most figured when Eloy showed up it would push Moncada...and he hasn't disappointed. Yoan is quasi super star status right now IMO. 

We haven't even touched what Eloy can do yet...and he will rake. It's a matter of time. 

And let's not forget the young super star in waiting down in Birmingham either...Mr Luis Robert.

So yeah...it sucks right now that the Sox haven't lived up to everyone's hopes and expectations...but a lot of this is hardly Hahn's fault.  Not landing Manny...partially.  Giving idiotic contracts to the likes of Jon Jay and Jones...yeah.  But there really is a light at the end of the tunnel IMO.

And last but not least...he really scored with the signing of McCann...who's been nothing short of spectacular so far. His only mistake was only making it a one year deal.

The injuries may not be on Hahn, but the slow / failed development of many of our young guys and top prospects is definitely on him.  He’s in charge of building the development & scouting staffs and if either of those functions struggle he’s ultimately accountable for them.

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Here’s Hahn’s offseason of additions.  The majority of his choices have been a failure thus far and there’s two guys Hahn can currently hang his hat on in Colome and McCann.  I’m not sure what he was expecting from most of these guys since outside of the two relievers, everyone else has been mediocre to bad in their careers or was ready for retirement in Santana’s case (likely Jay’s too).

 

Banuelos = 5.96 ERA

Nova = 7.04 ERA

Alonso = .625 OPS

Jay = hasn’t even suited up yet

Colome = 1.98 ERA

Herrera = 5.29 ERA

McCann = .995 OPS

Santana = 9.45 ERA and already released

Edited by Harper2Sox

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7 hours ago, Wanne said:

Ok...I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

1st...everybody thought at the time acquiring Giolito, Lopez and Dunning was a ridiculously one-sided score at the time. It's not really Hahn's fault that for some reason Giolito and Lopez really hasn't developed as fast or even at all like most thought.  So then you come down to...is it Cooper's fault?  Is it Hahn's fault Dunning had to have TJ?

Same with Kopech...not Hahn's fault he needed TJ as well. 

On the flip side....you have Cease who is going to be a star IMO...and when Kopech gets back he eventually will be as well. Hopefully that pushes Giolito and Lopez as well. Most figured when Eloy showed up it would push Moncada...and he hasn't disappointed. Yoan is quasi super star status right now IMO. 

We haven't even touched what Eloy can do yet...and he will rake. It's a matter of time. 

And let's not forget the young super star in waiting down in Birmingham either...Mr Luis Robert.

So yeah...it sucks right now that the Sox haven't lived up to everyone's hopes and expectations...but a lot of this is hardly Hahn's fault.  Not landing Manny...partially.  Giving idiotic contracts to the likes of Jon Jay and Jones...yeah.  But there really is a light at the end of the tunnel IMO.

And last but not least...he really scored with the signing of McCann...who's been nothing short of spectacular so far. His only mistake was only making it a one year deal.

 You’re only a “devil’s advocate” in the alternate universe of a thread explicitly dedicated to negativity.  

We are not supposed to be competitive this year.  Stop looking at the standings, and the performances of veteran stopgaps.  This year is about the development of Moncada, Anderson, Lopez, Giolito and Eloy, and the prospects—headlined by Robert and Cease.  Look around you:  things are going quite well with this group on the whole, and Eloy hasn’t even really “arrived” yet given the injury.  I don’t get the doom and gloom.  

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8 hours ago, Wanne said:

Ok...I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

1st...everybody thought at the time acquiring Giolito, Lopez and Dunning was a ridiculously one-sided score at the time. It's not really Hahn's fault that for some reason Giolito and Lopez really hasn't developed as fast or even at all like most thought.  So then you come down to...is it Cooper's fault?  Is it Hahn's fault Dunning had to have TJ?

Same with Kopech...not Hahn's fault he needed TJ as well. 

On the flip side....you have Cease who is going to be a star IMO...and when Kopech gets back he eventually will be as well. Hopefully that pushes Giolito and Lopez as well. Most figured when Eloy showed up it would push Moncada...and he hasn't disappointed. Yoan is quasi super star status right now IMO. 

We haven't even touched what Eloy can do yet...and he will rake. It's a matter of time. 

And let's not forget the young super star in waiting down in Birmingham either...Mr Luis Robert.

So yeah...it sucks right now that the Sox haven't lived up to everyone's hopes and expectations...but a lot of this is hardly Hahn's fault.  Not landing Manny...partially.  Giving idiotic contracts to the likes of Jon Jay and Jones...yeah.  But there really is a light at the end of the tunnel IMO.

And last but not least...he really scored with the signing of McCann...who's been nothing short of spectacular so far. His only mistake was only making it a one year deal.

The problem with this is it imagines a baseline of absolute zero...meaning if you expect a GM to fail on every move by contrast Hahn is not so bad. But when you compare him to an average GM it is not impressive, especially given resources.

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13 hours ago, Wanne said:

Ok...I'll be Devil's Advocate here.

1st...everybody thought at the time acquiring Giolito, Lopez and Dunning was a ridiculously one-sided score at the time. It's not really Hahn's fault that for some reason Giolito and Lopez really hasn't developed as fast or even at all like most thought.  So then you come down to...is it Cooper's fault?  Is it Hahn's fault Dunning had to have TJ?

Same with Kopech...not Hahn's fault he needed TJ as well. 

On the flip side....you have Cease who is going to be a star IMO...and when Kopech gets back he eventually will be as well. Hopefully that pushes Giolito and Lopez as well. Most figured when Eloy showed up it would push Moncada...and he hasn't disappointed. Yoan is quasi super star status right now IMO. 

We haven't even touched what Eloy can do yet...and he will rake. It's a matter of time. 

And let's not forget the young super star in waiting down in Birmingham either...Mr Luis Robert.

So yeah...it sucks right now that the Sox haven't lived up to everyone's hopes and expectations...but a lot of this is hardly Hahn's fault.  Not landing Manny...partially.  Giving idiotic contracts to the likes of Jon Jay and Jones...yeah.  But there really is a light at the end of the tunnel IMO.

And last but not least...he really scored with the signing of McCann...who's been nothing short of spectacular so far. His only mistake was only making it a one year deal.

You make some great points. I don't mind the haul we got for Eaton. My only problem is that Hahn and the FO has put us in a spot where every prospect must reach their potential. For instance, had we signed Manny, then we could afford for Moncada or Anderson to bust. I would like to see them bring some guys in to either be long term solutions or at the very least push others to be good. Having too much talent is a good problem as you can always make consolation trades. I really want McCann to work out as he's only 29. That would alleviate the need for Collins to be the guy. 

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On 5/5/2019 at 5:41 PM, Harper2Sox said:

Can I call Herrera a bad signing for a non-competitive team now that his ERA is above 5?

I also need the updated advanced metrics that say Alonso has been good...

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I do not know which is looking worse for Hahn...that he thought that he could get Machado for cheaper by trading for his brother in law...or that he traded for Alonso at all and he has a manager that is going to keep playing him (and batting him cleanup) enough that his option vests

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2 hours ago, wegner said:

I do not know which is looking worse for Hahn...that he thought that he could get Machado for cheaper by trading for his brother in law...or that he traded for Alonso at all and he has a manager that is going to keep playing him (and batting him cleanup) enough that his option vests

They hope he shows something enough to unload at the trade deadline.  I think if that doesn't happen they will DFA at that time.  I wish they would give him a few days out of the lineup to clear his head.  I just don't like these extreme shift guys.

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2 hours ago, wegner said:

I do not know which is looking worse for Hahn...that he thought that he could get Machado for cheaper by trading for his brother in law...or that he traded for Alonso at all and he has a manager that is going to keep playing him (and batting him cleanup) enough that his option vests

It's comments like these that often make me wonder what Williams/Hahn's peers in the other MLB front offices actually think of these two, and the current owner.  Is our front office respected by their peers, or are they viewed as less than adequate?  It would be fascinating to know!

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2 hours ago, poppysox said:

They hope he shows something enough to unload at the trade deadline.  I think if that doesn't happen they will DFA at that time.  I wish they would give him a few days out of the lineup to clear his head.  I just don't like these extreme shift guys.

I hope your take is correct but my fear is that no matter how he is hitting they will keep him around for that "veteran presence"

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1 hour ago, Fan O'Faust said:

It's comments like these that often make me wonder what Williams/Hahn's peers in the other MLB front offices actually think of these two, and the current owner.  Is our front office respected by their peers, or are they viewed as less than adequate?  It would be fascinating to know!

It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall of an opposing gm office when a call from Rick Hahn comes in.  What is the look on their face?

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1 hour ago, wegner said:

It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall of an opposing gm office when a call from Rick Hahn comes in.  What is the look on their face?

I wonder if it’s just coincidence that the beat prospect they ever traded, never had the chance for the White Sox to ruin him.

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4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I wonder if it’s just coincidence that the beat prospect they ever traded, never had the chance for the White Sox to ruin him.

Probably not. 

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Alonzo and Castillo two more "quality" acquisitions on the shit show that is Rick Hahn's legacy. This guy is a bean counter, a contract guy, nothing more, nothing less...he is not a baseball guy and certainly not a competent G.M.

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2 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Alonzo and Castillo two more "quality" acquisitions on the shit show that is Rick Hahn's legacy. This guy is a bean counter, a contract guy, nothing more, nothing less...he is not a baseball guy and certainly not a competent G.M.

Couldn't your description of Hahn being a bean counter, and  a contract guy also apply to JR? JR is not a baseball guy and a terrible owner. The one good thing he is good at is MAKING MONEY. 

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9 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Couldn't your description of Hahn being a bean counter, and  a contract guy also apply to JR? JR is not a baseball guy and a terrible owner. The one good thing he is good at is MAKING MONEY. 

He's one of the most hands on owners in baseball.  This guy is not sitting at home wondering how the team is doing.  There are very few days he doesn't talk to RH.  Might be guilty of many things but not caring isn't one of them.

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4 minutes ago, poppysox said:

He's one of the most hands on owners in baseball.  This guy is not sitting at home wondering how the team is doing.  There are very few days he doesn't talk to RH.  Might be guilty of many things but not caring isn't one of them.

 I don't know or care if  JR is a hands on owner but anyway you look at it JR IS A LOUSY BASEBALL OWNER.

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