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vilehoopster

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The only bad decision the front office made with Avi was not trading him when he had value in 2017, but I can understand that because at that time maybe you would have been giving up too soon on a guy that truly was breaking out and you would have been getting 70 cents on the dollar. Avi has always been a tease. I don't care what he does in Tampa and was glad to see him go.

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Say it is only for a month and a half so far, but still, I believe 100% that if we had Avi now instead of paying the same money to Alonso, the Sox would be over .500  right now. Now you can say that it doesn't matter because it's early in the season or this is still part of the rebuild years, so wins don't matter. 

But you know what, call me crazy, but I like it when the White Sox win games. I want the White Sox to win more games than they lose. I know, many people on here keep saying that rignt now wins don't matter. I know, I know. It's crazy that I want the Sox to win more games than they lose. Even if, so far, only a month and a half, having Avi in RF  with his .877 OPS (Only McCann has a better one on the Sox right now) and having his bat (instead of watching Yonder ground out time after time into the shift) would give the Sox two more wins this year, over .500. I know it's only two more or so wins, but that's two time I'm not pissed off and two more times instead of anger, I am happy. Call me crazy, but that appeals to me. 

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37 minutes ago, vilehoopster said:

Say it is only for a month and a half so far, but still, I believe 100% that if we had Avi now instead of paying the same money to Alonso, the Sox would be over .500  right now. Now you can say that it doesn't matter because it's early in the season or this is still part of the rebuild years, so wins don't matter. 

But you know what, call me crazy, but I like it when the White Sox win games. I want the White Sox to win more games than they lose. I know, many people on here keep saying that rignt now wins don't matter. I know, I know. It's crazy that I want the Sox to win more games than they lose. Even if, so far, only a month and a half, having Avi in RF  with his .877 OPS (Only McCann has a better one on the Sox right now) and having his bat (instead of watching Yonder ground out time after time into the shift) would give the Sox two more wins this year, over .500. I know it's only two more or so wins, but that's two time I'm not pissed off and two more times instead of anger, I am happy. Call me crazy, but that appeals to me. 

I get where your coming from.  Winning is more entertaining than losing.

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11 hours ago, JuliusO1274 said:

I would understand this "he had one good season" logic if his good season was many years ago but it wasn't. It was 2017 and he struggled with injuries in 2018 yet showed a lot more power. I posted on another White Sox forum when the Sox got rid of him that I expected him to put together the high average of 2017 and power of 2018 for his 2019 season if he stays healthy. Him having a great season is not surprising at all to me.

This has been a pattern his entire career. There was and is no reason to assume that will magically fix itself. 

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5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

yes. That's silly. The guy is not giving up that year of free agency, that's terrible business. If he didn't perform there's no benefit to him since the option is an option, if he performed well he's costing himself money. The entire concept assumes that his representation is stupid.

Guys will give up those kind of contracts when they are coming back from surgery and expect to miss 2/3 of the season and just need someone's facilities where they can rehab for a year. 

Ok I guess we will see how it all plays out. But it really doesn't assume  his representation is stupid. It represents that many times a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. How many times do you see guys lately entering free agency and not getting anything close to what they expected to get ? Why do young guys sign extensions ? Why do FA's to be forego Free Agency and sign extensions ? DO you think Adam Jones expected to make less than John Jay being a year younger and a much higher level performer over the years ?

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Ok I guess we will see how it all plays out. But it really doesn't assume  his representation is stupid. It represents that many times a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. How many times do you see guys lately entering free agency and not getting anything close to what they expected to get ? Why do young guys sign extensions ? Why do FA's to be forego Free Agency and sign extensions ? DO you think Adam Jones expected to make less than John Jay being a year younger and a much higher level performer over the years ?

No it doesn't represent a bird in the hand. You described it as an option, not a 2 year guarantee. By definition an option is something he doesn't have guaranteed. He does not have that bird in the hand, he has to go hunt it, and he's given up the right to hunt extra.

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4 hours ago, TomPickle said:

The only bad decision the front office made with Avi was not trading him when he had value in 2017, but I can understand that because at that time maybe you would have been giving up too soon on a guy that truly was breaking out and you would have been getting 70 cents on the dollar. Avi has always been a tease. I don't care what he does in Tampa and was glad to see him go.

The bigger takeaway from tampa, as ever, is getting that direct comparison in an organization that commits to player development and squeezing value out of every asset, and the white sox.

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12 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So if you gave him basically the same contract as TB and gave him a player option year of $6-8M with more incentives next year . that's silly for a guy who might get injured again or have a bad year and be out of baseball ? What makes you think he'll be worth  more than 8 M on the open market next year. FA's arent getting squat anymore. What was he worth the off season after he hit .335 when he was 26 ?

The Sox are swimming in money. Sometimes it's just the right thing to do to keep a player who actually has proven he's a big league hitter. And Fathom said he's now a good fielder. The Sox signed John Jay and Alonso for gosh sakes. Arguably one Avi is better than both of those stiffs. Just.Pay.Avi.

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32 minutes ago, bmags said:

The bigger takeaway from tampa, as ever, is getting that direct comparison in an organization that commits to player development and squeezing value out of every asset, and the white sox.

The list of cromulent, cheap MLB quality players that the Sox have traded away in the last 5-7 years continues to grow and grow and grow.  Problem is: is it a scouting issue or a coaching issue or both?  I tend to think it's a coaching issue.  I do believe the White Sox have one of the worst coaching philosophies and teaching ability in MLB.  Their players rarely if ever show unexpected improvement, especially defensively.  On the pitching side whatever they are doing to prevent injuries and develop secondary pitches and consistent deliveries seems to be at best well below league average and at worst -- horrendous.

The scouting seems to be middle of the road but the coaching is just putrid. 

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5 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

Say it is only for a month and a half so far, but still, I believe 100% that if we had Avi now instead of paying the same money to Alonso, the Sox would be over .500  right now. Now you can say that it doesn't matter because it's early in the season or this is still part of the rebuild years, so wins don't matter. 

But you know what, call me crazy, but I like it when the White Sox win games. I want the White Sox to win more games than they lose. I know, many people on here keep saying that rignt now wins don't matter. I know, I know. It's crazy that I want the Sox to win more games than they lose. Even if, so far, only a month and a half, having Avi in RF  with his .877 OPS (Only McCann has a better one on the Sox right now) and having his bat (instead of watching Yonder ground out time after time into the shift) would give the Sox two more wins this year, over .500. I know it's only two more or so wins, but that's two time I'm not pissed off and two more times instead of anger, I am happy. Call me crazy, but that appeals to me. 

I don't call you crazy. When I see this flawed roster so close to .500 and I realize once again our division blows, I want to WIN. This tanking thing is against everything I stand for. Can't believe I'm still a Sox fan but it's in the blood, though the blood is thinning. You aren't crazy. In my opinion you are right as am I. Win and win every year!

Edited by greg775

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24 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I don't call you crazy. When I see this flawed roster so close to .500 and I realize once again our division blows, I want to WIN. This tanking thing is against everything I stand for. Can't believe I'm still a Sox fan but it's in the blood, though the blood is thinning. You aren't crazy. In my opinion you are right as am I. Win and win every year!

Greg, trying to win every year is exactly how you end up trading Tatis Jr. for Shields. A huge reason why the Sox are in this mess is that they tried to win too many seasons when they didn't have the horses. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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42 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

The list of cromulent, cheap MLB quality players that the Sox have traded away in the last 5-7 years continues to grow and grow and grow.  Problem is: is it a scouting issue or a coaching issue or both?  I tend to think it's a coaching issue.  I do believe the White Sox have one of the worst coaching philosophies and teaching ability in MLB.  Their players rarely if ever show unexpected improvement, especially defensively.  On the pitching side whatever they are doing to prevent injuries and develop secondary pitches and consistent deliveries seems to be at best well below league average and at worst -- horrendous.

The scouting seems to be middle of the road but the coaching is just putrid. 

You guys think coaching matters WAY too much. 

Players at that level don't need lessons, they need data and information to study and adapt their games. Maybe the Sox are poor at providing that, but this idea that the Sox stink because of a pitching coach or manager is greatly misguided.

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2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

No it doesn't represent a bird in the hand. You described it as an option, not a 2 year guarantee. By definition an option is something he doesn't have guaranteed. He does not have that bird in the hand, he has to go hunt it, and he's given up the right to hunt extra.

Didn't I say a player option ? Meaning if he has a great year in 2019 he can either elect free agency or accept the terms of the 2nd year If he has a crap year or gets injured again then he could take the 2nd year option. Risky for  the Sox possibly only getting the 1 good year or worse getting 2 bad years but 2 years for the price of one basically if they had not non tendered him. (3.5 base salary doesn't reach incentives then  $6 option year= 9.5M, roughly a little more than he might have got in arb.

Structuring contracts is not my strong suit so I really don't know if that would be a viable thing for the Sox to do . But with so many OF's in the system not having reached AA yet at the time Avi was non tendered it buys them some time with a chance Avi could put it all together.

But as I said I was fine with them non tendering him. I wasn't upset about it because I thought the Sox would get Machado and if not surely get more than they did. But I always thought it would've been a good idea to resign him after non tendering him even if it was for just 1 year like TB did it with incentives. It's all water under the vridge now anyway. Sox chances at a successful rebuild are slim regardless if drafts picks don't produce, injuries keep screwing with it and they can't evaluate and sign Free agents properly. Avi is just a microcosm of how the whole off season sucked.

I thought the 2 most talented guys who were non tendered were Avi and Schoop and I wanted them both. And I am sure i made posts expressing this.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

The bigger takeaway from tampa, as ever, is getting that direct comparison in an organization that commits to player development and squeezing value out of every asset, and the white sox.

That's the bigger point. Even if TB signed him as a last resort when their other option fell through  they still knew he had a lot of upside and took a chance on it.

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

The bigger takeaway from tampa, as ever, is getting that direct comparison in an organization that commits to player development and squeezing value out of every asset, and the white sox.

There aren't enough likes for this post. 

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49 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You guys think coaching matters WAY too much. 

Players at that level don't need lessons, they need data and information to study and adapt their games. Maybe the Sox are poor at providing that, but this idea that the Sox stink because of a pitching coach or manager is greatly misguided.

At the big league level that's coaching.  That's the analytics and video analysis team.  More and more athletes are also hiring "performance coaches" to try and get in the right mental mindset to succeed and prevent "brain farts" like collisions in the OF, forgetting how many outs there are, stuff like that.  Doesn't seem like the Sox have one of those available either.

Edited by chitownsportsfan

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4 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Greg, trying to win every year is exactly how you end up trading Tatis Jr. for Shields. A huge reason why the Sox are in this mess is that they tried to win too many seasons when they didn't have the horses. 

I disagree. This is all mumbo jumbo cliche talk. You get enough good players in a lousy division, you contend. Even this year. We have about half very good hitters in our lineup and 4-5 who are ridiculously bad. Our rotation is overacheiving and the bullpen is hot and cold. Even with all that, we are near .500. If we had Avi (in my opinion) in the lineup it'd be that much better and you make a couple free agent pitching signings and voila ... Sox are competing.

Look at Minnesota's roster and their "plan." You tell me why they are excelling. Stuff happens. It's up to the front office to do its job and win without 5-7 years of "tanking." Makes me so mad.

As far as how you end up trading Tatis for Shields. Just a bad bad call by the talent evaluators. You didn't need to trade Tatis to get somebody like Shields. That was just poor work by the front office and IMO had nothing to do with trying to compete now. Again, go ahead and acquire Shields for crap. Not a fine prospect.

Edited by greg775

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24 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I disagree. This is all mumbo jumbo cliche talk. You get enough good players in a lousy division, you contend. Even this year. We have about half very good hitters in our lineup and 4-5 who are ridiculously bad. Our rotation is overacheiving and the bullpen is hot and cold. Even with all that, we are near .500. If we had Avi (in my opinion) in the lineup it'd be that much better and you make a couple free agent pitching signings and voila ... Sox are competing.

Look at Minnesota's roster and their "plan." You tell me why they are excelling. Stuff happens. It's up to the front office to do its job and win without 5-7 years of "tanking." Makes me so mad.

As far as how you end up trading Tatis for Shields. Just a bad bad call by the talent evaluators. You didn't need to trade Tatis to get somebody like Shields. That was just poor work by the front office and IMO had nothing to do with trying to compete now. Again, go ahead and acquire Shields for crap. Not a fine prospect.

I agree that tanking should be behind us.  There are available people right now who would help us be competitive while giving up nothing.

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