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McCann Extension

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2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

McCann is clearly a very good defensive catcher and game caller. He does the work most people never see.

He's not though.  He is mediocre at best defensively.  There are actual metrics that prove this which are more reliable than a biased fans eye test.  He was non-tendered by DETROIT.  It's fun to think he's something more than he is, but he probably isn't.  Like the Mariners for 3 weeks.

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31 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Sounds to me like he learned the same way a lot of players learn... from each other. 

Then he told the Soxs analytical and video guys he was interested and they supplied him with the necessary information required to better himself.

That's how most players get better - through a want-to.

The best baseball organizations are not waiting for players to ask for basic information, they are proactively creating plans to get better. Yes, some are more receptive. 

In this case, a player who was receptive was bad at it, but didn't know it or what it was, and the sox didn't care he didn't know about it or else would have made it a point of his plan.

Or as you call it, "player development".

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1 hour ago, BackDoorBreach said:

He's not though.  He is mediocre at best defensively.  There are actual metrics that prove this which are more reliable than a biased fans eye test.  He was non-tendered by DETROIT.  It's fun to think he's something more than he is, but he probably isn't.  Like the Mariners for 3 weeks.

Yes, sure, and most people who actually create these metrics and people who work in analytics and asses these metrics will tell you that the confidence level in regards to those stats are low and that catcher evaluation from an analytical standpoint is in its infancy stages.

Being a good received is 90% of catching defense and there is no efficient grade, beyond "framing" which has it's own problems, to judge a catchers talent. Hence why I said to ask pitchers. Giolito certainly disagrees with your analytical assessment and so do I and I'm, likely, much more analytically driven than you - it is likely a weakness of mine as I struggle to seperate stats from "intangibles" because I find them overrated and I cant put a value on them so I ignore them 99.9% of the time. Catching is not one of those times.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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1 hour ago, bmags said:

The best baseball organizations are not waiting for players to ask for basic information, they are proactively creating plans to get better. Yes, some are more receptive. 

In this case, a player who was receptive was bad at it, but didn't know it or what it was, and the sox didn't care he didn't know about it or else would have made it a point of his plan.

Or as you call it, "player development".

The provided him with the information. They recorded the information. They gathered the information. That is the organizations job. 

In the modern game there is a thing called data overload. You dont want to overload players with immense amounts of data because not all players receive it well. Your job is to maintain and gather and the distribute based on need. 

The amount of information given to catchers already is immense - about 5 times that of a regular position player - and asking why they didnt supply him with everything he could possibly need represents a misunderstanding of overwhelming a player with analytics and data. Much of this stuff is new to an athlete. 

We'll agree to disagree here. I know you've convinced yourself that player outcomes are heavily influenced by player development departments but they're just not. They definitely matter - just not on the scale so many try to put it on here. 

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25 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The provided him with the information. They recorded the information. They gathered the information. That is the organizations job. 

In the modern game there is a thing called data overload. You dont want to overload players with immense amounts of data because not all players receive it well. Your job is to maintain and gather and the distribute based on need. 

The amount of information given to catchers already is immense - about 5 times that of a regular position player - and asking why they didnt supply him with everything he could possibly need represents a misunderstanding of overwhelming a player with analytics and data. Much of this stuff is new to an athlete. 

We'll agree to disagree here. I know you've convinced yourself that player outcomes are heavily influenced by player development departments but they're just not. They definitely matter - just not on the scale so many try to put it on here. 

It’s weird how other organizations that aren’t the white Sox are capable of fitting it in!

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4 hours ago, bmags said:

It’s weird how other organizations that aren’t the white Sox are capable of fitting it in!

Yeah, maybe they focus on different things. Weird, I know. It's almost like they prioritize something else maybe?

This may blow your mind, but some players don't want very much data at all. They don't want to do a lot of thinking. What do you do with them? Some of those players could be the best players in baseball. 

You don't hand out a packet and give weekly tests. This isn't the NFL with playbooks. 

If a player asks and you don't have it, that's a problem. 

I could understand doing analysis, finding a deficiency with a player and improving it, but framing in general was in its infancy stages in regards to valuing, and still has its validity and efficiency issues today. Stealing strikes or losing balls is subjective to the decision making of another human that is not you. 

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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On 5/31/2019 at 5:31 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, sure, and most people who actually create these metrics and people who work in analytics and asses these metrics will tell you that the confidence level in regards to those stats are low and that catcher evaluation from an analytical standpoint is in its infancy stages.

Being a good received is 90% of catching defense and there is no efficient grade, beyond "framing" which has it's own problems, to judge a catchers talent. Hence why I said to ask pitchers. Giolito certainly disagrees with your analytical assessment and so do I and I'm, likely, much more analytically driven than you - it is likely a weakness of mine as I struggle to seperate stats from "intangibles" because I find them overrated and I cant put a value on them so I ignore them 99.9% of the time. Catching is not one of those times.

Any stat that tells me McCann isn't a good catcher...isn't much of a stat IMO.  Stat's should more often than not confirm what you already know.  As fans who watch the game every day we do have an eye test that I consider to be quite accurate.  I don't really need to know how fast a ball was hit or the trajectory as it left the yard, etc.  If a guy hits 35 HR's that is the only meaningful stat I care about...not how may feet they travelled in total.  Stats to me are interesting but give me batting ave, rbi's and HR's.

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6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Any stat that tells me McCann isn't a good catcher...isn't much of a stat IMO.  Stat's should more often than not confirm what you already know.  As fans who watch the game every day we do have an eye test that I consider to be quite accurate.  I don't really need to know how fast a ball was hit or the trajectory as it left the yard, etc.  If a guy hits 35 HR's that is the only meaningful stat I care about...not how may feet they travelled in total.  Stats to me are interesting but give me batting ave, rbi's and HR's.

Yes, and McCann’s stats over his career damn well tell you that you shouldn’t jump to give him an extension since this is not the player he has ever been.

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14 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Yes, and McCann’s stats over his career damn well tell you that you shouldn’t jump to give him an extension since this is not the player he has ever been.

A three year extension for 5 million per would please me greatly.

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I don't know if this has been mentioned here previously, but his extension will be influenced by our #1 draft pick tomorrow.  

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He's no big deal let him beg to stay here. 

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On 6/2/2019 at 6:56 AM, poppysox said:

A three year extension for 5 million per would please me greatly.

That would be great. I saw in another thread here someone said they would give him 3/$45 mill.

Edited by soxfan2014

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He seems to be a different player since the All-Star break, much like Giolito. May need to rethink that extension talk until more time has passed.

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3 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

That would be great. I saw in another thread here someone said they would give him 3/$45 mill.

That would definitely not be me.  I think 3 years at 5 million is what he would get on the open market.  He is very decent catcher and a good mentor for our young team.  Just the type of veteran player to have around the young guys.  Seems to be a class act.

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7 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

That would be great. I saw in another thread here someone said they would give him 3/$45 mill.

Three and $20-25 million seems fair...if they love his defense and work with young pitchers enough.

You start paying him $5 million as a FA or extension, he’s looking over his shoulder for a replacement to take his place.

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He's back on a tear and I'm becoming a fan. Sorry for a lazy question, but can someone please remind me of his status next year?

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3 minutes ago, napa_soxfan said:

He's back on a tear and I'm becoming a fan. Sorry for a lazy question, but can someone please remind me of his status next year?

Arbitration eligible and then a free agent in 2021.

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5 minutes ago, napa_soxfan said:

He's back on a tear and I'm becoming a fan. Sorry for a lazy question, but can someone please remind me of his status next year?

Last year of arb

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On 7/27/2019 at 11:37 AM, poppysox said:

That would definitely not be me.  I think 3 years at 5 million is what he would get on the open market.  He is very decent catcher and a good mentor for our young team.  Just the type of veteran player to have around the young guys.  Seems to be a class act.

Sometimes guys click with their new team like Flowers in Atlanta; just make McCann part of the team's future plans. Whatever that means in terms of signing him, just do it. He's proven he fits on this team and is as good as anybody we could get right now. It's not rocket science. Pay the man and keep him around.

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10 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Sometimes guys click with their new team like Flowers in Atlanta; just make McCann part of the team's future plans. Whatever that means in terms of signing him, just do it. He's proven he fits on this team and is as good as anybody we could get right now. It's not rocket science. Pay the man and keep him around.

I agree completely.  It’ll take a lot of pressure off of Collins.   RF and SP are enough to worry about

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He should get a lot more than Jay’s salary...he’s already earned that much respect in less than one full season.

His “leadership” is just as critical as Anderson’s or Abreu’s.

Ron Gardenhire pointed out how underrated that part of his game was...how much they didn’t realize they’d miss until it was gone from their clubhouse.  Part of that's fluff, but it’s certainly something to take into consideration.

Edited by caulfield12

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I still don’t see any advantage to extending him.  Pay him his arbitration money and reassess when he is a free agent.  He’s not going to become some stud that is so good that you can’t afford him at 30 years old.  But the risk of him tanking hard next season is much greater than any money you would save extending him now.

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On 5/31/2019 at 4:31 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, sure, and most people who actually create these metrics and people who work in analytics and asses these metrics will tell you that the confidence level in regards to those stats are low and that catcher evaluation from an analytical standpoint is in its infancy stages.

Being a good received is 90% of catching defense and there is no efficient grade, beyond "framing" which has it's own problems, to judge a catchers talent. Hence why I said to ask pitchers. Giolito certainly disagrees with your analytical assessment and so do I and I'm, likely, much more analytically driven than you - it is likely a weakness of mine as I struggle to seperate stats from "intangibles" because I find them overrated and I cant put a value on them so I ignore them 99.9% of the time. Catching is not one of those times.

Not only is he a good catcher, he is still growing into his game and we need him to train Collins. He has bought into the South Side and his name is on our next trophy. If you watch the Castillo games you know James is important. Aside from our crippled pitchers we had three position players come into their own and Eloy is likely to do so next year. Add LouRob and  Magical with Jose and the lineup is not so bad. Need to add a quality OF and SP for next season. I would try Eloy in RF because that was his first home. I forgot Vaughn and maybe Mercedes. 

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54 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I still don’t see any advantage to extending him.  Pay him his arbitration money and reassess when he is a free agent.  He’s not going to become some stud that is so good that you can’t afford him at 30 years old.  But the risk of him tanking hard next season is much greater than any money you would save extending him now.

Notable free agents for 2020-21
Catcher: J.T. Realmuto, Mike Zunino, Yadier Molina
 

First base: C.J. Cron, Yuli Gurriel, Ryan Zimmerman
Second base: Starlin Castro, Jason Kipnis, Cesar Hernandez, Marwin Gonzalez, DJ LeMahieu, Daniel Murphy (mutual option)
Third base: Justin Turner, Zack Cozart, Jake Lamb
Shortstop: Andrelton Simmons, Jonathan Villar, Marcus Semien, Jurickson Profar
Outfield: Mookie Betts, George Springer, Yoenis Cespedes, David Peralta, Michael Brantley, Joc Pederson, Jackie Bradley Jr., Jay Bruce, Giancarlo Stanton (opt-out)
DH: Edwin Encarnacion
Starting pitchers: Trevor Bauer, Robbie Ray, James Paxton, Masahiro Tanaka, Jake Arrieta, Marcus Stroman, Jose Quintana
Relievers: Blake Treinen, Jeremy Jeffress, Alex Colome, Brandon Morrow, Andrew Miller (club option)

 

Once again, like Grandal this offseason...only ONE option on the market.

There's no reason why they can't go ahead and sign him to a three year deal for $20-25 million and then continue to work on improving the position with Collins or via the trade market.

 

The year after, that 2021, more garbage (because Perez's defensive skills have likely eroded with all the time sitting out with TJS)

Catcher: Salvador Perez, Wilson Ramos, Yan Gomes

 

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