Lip Man 1 Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 6 hours ago, poppysox said: I'm not trying to denigrate any of our White Sox hero's of yesterday. But look at the careers of those you mention: Landis .247 lifetime 10 year career 93 HR Peters 124 Wins 103 Loses 3.25 era 13 year career Mincher .249 12 200 Horlen 116 117 3.11 11 Aparico .262 17 83 Locker 57 39 2.75 10 Cash .271 16 377 Lattman 59 68 3.91 9 Berry .255 13 58 Hershberger .252 10 26 Romano .255 9 129 Battey .270 12 104 I think most of todays fans will take the over on their expectations on what todays prospects will achieve. Poppy you are talking about a Hall of Famer, numerous All-Stars, guys who combined hit over 1,000 home runs, Gold Glove winners. Those are going to be hard to stack up against with this bunch. I understand your optimism but please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Lip Man 1 said: Poppy you are talking about a Hall of Famer, numerous All-Stars, guys who combined hit over 1,000 home runs, Gold Glove winners. Those are going to be hard to stack up against with this bunch. I understand your optimism but please. I personally watched each and every one of these players and am personally a huge fan of Aparico, Landis and Peters. They were some of my favorite players. Most fans on this site would scoff at those batting averages and home run totals. It was a different time when a slick fielding base stealer could be consider a star. Every time I bring up Madrigal who has those same qualities...I'm criticized by half the forum. Many of the other people listed as old time greats did come up in the Sox organization but played little or never with the Sox. It's great to use McLain as an example but he never pitched for the White Sox in a single game. We all toss the "statistics" around to make point. My only point is that we will be very good very soon. We had great players in the past and we have some more coming now. If you don't really see it that way...I don't know why you spend so much time on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, poppysox said: I personally watched each and every one of these players and am personally a huge fan of Aparico, Landis and Peters. They were some of my favorite players. Most fans on this site would scoff at those batting averages and home run totals. It was a different time when a slick fielding base stealer could be consider a star. Every time I bring up Madrigal who has those same qualities...I'm criticized by half the forum. Many of the other people listed as old time greats did come up in the Sox organization but played little or never with the Sox. It's great to use McLain as an example but he never pitched for the White Sox in a single game. We all toss the "statistics" around to make point. My only point is that we will be very good very soon. We had great players in the past and we have some more coming now. If you don't really see it that way...I don't know why you spend so much time on this board. True but he was signed by them and came up through their organization as did Mincher for example who never had an at bat for the Sox yet started for the Twins during the World Series in 65. I sincerely hope the Sox will be "very good very soon". Color me hesitant given who is calling the shots. Hell, they can't even keep some of these guys healthy can they? Hard to put a team out there and say they are going to be "very good" when the past few years they've looked like a M*A*S*H unit. Edited June 6, 2019 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 14 hours ago, mqr said: Those trades don't happen and you're still looking at a team trying to make do with Sale, while starting guys like JB shuck in the outfield. No use crying over spilled milk. All this line of thinking does is paralyze you when it's time to make moves. I hope it does paralyze them and they stop making trades for veterans. They got virtually nothing from those vets and overpaid for each. They are exceptionally bad at it. They weren't getting a Sale no matter what had happened or happens, unless they got exceptionally lucky. But with an infield of Anderson, Tatis, Moncada, Semien, and Escobar, they could have traded for another OF or 2 and they could have still had Avi. Montas and Bassit are viable ML starters. BTW, the Eaton and Peavy trades were fantastic. Samardzija and Frazier trades were not. But they followed the age old mantra: when something works, stop doing it. When something fails, keep doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, GreenSox said: I hope it does paralyze them and they stop making trades for veterans. They got virtually nothing from those vets and overpaid for each. They are exceptionally bad at it. They weren't getting a Sale no matter what had happened or happens, unless they got exceptionally lucky. But with an infield of Anderson, Tatis, Moncada, Semien, and Escobar, they could have traded for another OF or 2 and they could have still had Avi. Montas and Bassit are viable ML starters. BTW, the Eaton and Peavy trades were fantastic. Samardzija and Frazier trades were not. But they followed the age old mantra: when something works, stop doing it. When something fails, keep doing it. They had a core that was ready to compete and those guys weren’t ready to contribute. They’re going to need to do the same thing again. The Tatis one is the only one you can’t defend. If samardzija was the guy you thought you were getting no one would care that Marcus semien figured it out four years later. I’m also not sure why you’re sweating Frankie Montana who is on his third team before he figured it out. They need to be better at pro scouting, not scared to move mid tier prospects. Edited June 6, 2019 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 32 minutes ago, mqr said: They had a core that was ready to compete and those guys weren’t ready to contribute. They’re going to need to do the same thing again. The Tatis one is the only one you can’t defend. If samardzija was the guy you thought you were getting no one would care that Marcus semien figured it out four years later. I’m also not sure why you’re sweating Frankie Montana who is on his third team before he figured it out. They need to be better at pro scouting, not scared to move mid tier prospects. Clearly they did not. Jeff Samardzija being slightly better does not turn a mid-70s win team into a 90 win team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 18 hours ago, mqr said: Those trades don't happen and you're still looking at a team trying to make do with Sale, while starting guys like JB shuck in the outfield. No use crying over spilled milk. All this line of thinking does is paralyze you when it's time to make moves. I think this is well said and should be pinned. We need to stop bringing up Tatis because none of this potentially happens if past trades didn't happen. It happened. That's all that really needs to be said on that front. I think the answer to OP's question is probably "no", but it's not that fair of a question because our opinions of past young talent are obviously shaped by their development. This question about the 2016-2020 farm system is better asked in 2025. That being said, anyone who isn't at least moderately enthusiastic about the future of this organization is buying trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrown54 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 On 6/4/2019 at 10:24 AM, GreenSox said: Ordonez, Konerko, Durham, Crede, Foulke, Rowand, Buehrle, Baldwin, Marte... a lot of all star level talent. Plus they had players who people thought would be good but didn't turn out (that will happen with many on the current list) as well as filler similar to Tilson, etc. That would be around 1998-99. Ordonez had a breakout year and Carlos Lee's and Konerko's talents were obvious. Within a year, a 90+ win season and division title, even with below average starting pitching. That is not the case this time; many of those mentioned by JUSTgottaBELIEVE are still in minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 19 minutes ago, TBrown54 said: That would be around 1998-99. Ordonez had a breakout year and Carlos Lee's and Konerko's talents were obvious. Within a year, a 90+ win season and division title, even with below average starting pitching. That is not the case this time; many of those mentioned by JUSTgottaBELIEVE are still in minors. How so? More than half the guys I listed are already major leaguers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrown54 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: How so? More than half the guys I listed are already major leaguers. OK, but looking at offense -- Sox need HRs and box office needs a jolt, only ones with All-Star potential on your list and on roster are Yoan, Eloy, and Anderson, and maybe McCann . All others hitters you listed are not All-Star caliber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 5 minutes ago, TBrown54 said: OK, but looking at offense -- Sox need HRs and box office needs a jolt, only ones with All-Star potential on your list and on roster are Yoan, Eloy, and Anderson, and maybe McCann . All others hitters you listed are not All-Star caliber. When’s the last time this organization had two position players that were all stars in the same season? Not sure they will make it this year but Anderson and Moncada are playing at that level already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asindc Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 On 6/5/2019 at 1:11 PM, poppysox said: I'm not trying to denigrate any of our White Sox hero's of yesterday. But look at the careers of those you mention: Landis .247 lifetime 10 year career 93 HR Peters 124 Wins 103 Loses 3.25 era 13 year career Mincher .249 12 200 Horlen 116 117 3.11 11 Aparico .262 17 83 Locker 57 39 2.75 10 Cash .271 16 377 Lattman 59 68 3.91 9 Berry .255 13 58 Hershberger .252 10 26 Romano .255 9 129 Battey .270 12 104 I think most of todays fans will take the over on their expectations on what todays prospects will achieve. Why are you listing Aparicio's HRs and not his SBs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asindc Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Though the late 80s/early 90s does not have the depth of the late 90s and current class, it has the best top end. I don't know if any other team has hit big on 4 1st rounders in a row like the Sox did with Black Jack ('87), Robin ('88) Frank ('89), and Alex Fernandez ('90). Add Jason Bere (36th round, '90), and you have what is probably the strongest top level of Sox farm system in Sox history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 7 hours ago, mqr said: They had a core that was ready to compete and those guys weren’t ready to contribute. They’re going to need to do the same thing again. The Tatis one is the only one you can’t defend. If samardzija was the guy you thought you were getting no one would care that Marcus semien figured it out four years later. I’m also not sure why you’re sweating Frankie Montana who is on his third team before he figured it out. They need to be better at pro scouting, not scared to move mid tier prospects. Four years later? Semien was a 3 WAR player his first year in Oakland. It was a dumb trade at the time and its still a dumb trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba phillips Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 On 6/4/2019 at 1:22 PM, Jack Parkman said: Yes, this is the most talent the Sox have had since around the turn of the century. People forget how good of a prospect some of the guys that flamed out were, such as Corwin Malone and Jon Rauch. Both were considered potential future Aces. They had arm injuries, and Rauch was able to carve out a short bullpen career. Around 2001 they looked set for a long time. I remember this Rauch story when he was with the Sox. He got pissed off one game that he was taken out after the 5th inning. So he showered and left the ballpark. Ken Williams, trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer, reacted in typical fashion for him. Instead of disciplining the kid with a fine/suspension, he immediately released him. Rauch had some productive years as a relief pitcher that could have been with the Sox if not for the hotheaded Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 10 minutes ago, bubba phillips said: I remember this Rauch story when he was with the Sox. He got pissed off one game that he was taken out after the 5th inning. So he showered and left the ballpark. Ken Williams, trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer, reacted in typical fashion for him. Instead of disciplining the kid with a fine/suspension, he immediately released him. Rauch had some productive years as a relief pitcher that could have been with the Sox if not for the hotheaded Williams. He did not immediately release him, he immediately traded him for Carl Everett. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 17 minutes ago, bubba phillips said: I remember this Rauch story when he was with the Sox. He got pissed off one game that he was taken out after the 5th inning. So he showered and left the ballpark. Ken Williams, trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer, reacted in typical fashion for him. Instead of disciplining the kid with a fine/suspension, he immediately released him. Rauch had some productive years as a relief pitcher that could have been with the Sox if not for the hotheaded Williams. Complaining about Jon Rauch who accumulated 6 WAR in a 11 year career is just complaining for the sake of it. The same is true for other posters namedropping a complete stiff like Josh Phegley as the one that got away. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba phillips Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 2 hours ago, GermanSoxFan said: Complaining about Jon Rauch who accumulated 6 WAR in a 11 year career is just complaining for the sake of it. The same is true for other posters namedropping a complete stiff like Josh Phegley as the one that got away. 🤣 The point of the story was to show the over-reaction on the part of Williams. I'm sure Williams didn't stop and think, "I can do this because Rauch will have only a 6 WAR in the next 11 years" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 37 minutes ago, bubba phillips said: The point of the story was to show the over-reaction on the part of Williams. I'm sure Williams didn't stop and think, "I can do this because Rauch will have only a 6 WAR in the next 11 years" So you think he would have traded him if he thought he would have had 60 WAR in that time period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrown54 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Eloy Jiménez said: I think this is well said and should be pinned. We need to stop bringing up Tatis because none of this potentially happens if past trades didn't happen. It happened. That's all that really needs to be said on that front. I think the answer to OP's question is probably "no", but it's not that fair of a question because our opinions of past young talent are obviously shaped by their development. This question about the 2016-2020 farm system is better asked in 2025. That being said, anyone who isn't at least moderately enthusiastic about the future of this organization is buying trouble. I don't know why this front-office Kenny should be given a pass. The past decade also happened and the Executive VP of Baseball Futility is still around. The only thing the print media reports about him is he and his wife -- "one of Chicago's true power couples" (gag) -- sold their townhouse. References to him in electronic media attempt to legitimize him. This forum is a great outlet for a frustrated fan base. I appreciate the optimistic posts but I say keep up the front-office-bashing (I do my best to contribute). The negativity is harder to process but it serves a purpose. Something along the lines of those who don't know history are bound to repeat it. Edited June 7, 2019 by TBrown54 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 1 minute ago, TBrown54 said: I don't know why this front-office Kenny should be given a pass. The past decade also happened and the Executive VP of Baseball Futility is still around. The only thing the media reports about him is he and his wife -- "one of Chicago's true power couples" (gag) -- sold their townhouse. References to him in electronic media attempt to legitimize him. This forum is a great outlet for a frustrated fan base. I appreciate the optimistic posts but I say keep up the front-office-bashing (I do my best to contribute). The negativity is harder to process but it serves a purpose. Something along the lines of those who don't know history are bound to repeat it. Fine. Don't give him a pass. What do you want to do about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrown54 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Eloy Jiménez said: Fine. Don't give him a pass. What do you want to do about it? Vent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba phillips Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 46 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said: So you think he would have traded him if he thought he would have had 60 WAR in that time period? Again, the point of the story was that Williams overreacted. Rauch should have been disciplined only. That's it. Not removed from the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 I agree that youth is finally contributing, but I believe that McCann is 29 next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 11 hours ago, bubba phillips said: Again, the point of the story was that Williams overreacted. Rauch should have been disciplined only. That's it. Not removed from the team. But he was traded for a player that contributed to a World Series KW has many faults but this is definitely a strange one to point out, Rauch meant nothing in the scheme of things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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