Rick Hahn and his Trades

[greg775]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If Robert becomes a similar superstar, he might get out of the penalty box...unless you prefer to credit KW and Hahn instead.

The storyline is already shifting from Guerrero Jr./Eloy this season to the pursuit of more well-rounded players, and the ultimate importance of speed, defense, base running, etc.

Robert, Madrigal, Moncada and Anderson will have to lead the way for the rest.

Eloy gets him out of any penalty box. It stands as one of the great trades in White Sox history. He's going to hit 30-40 home runs without even trying; 50 many years trying and with the juiced ball. Tatis is one of the worst trades in the history of sports potentially but like I said, Eloy, is that good.

[bubba phillips]

19 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Tyler Flowers would be another example of a player they gave up on who went on to improve elsewhere...ironically, with his original/drafting organization, the Braves (who actually seem to know what they’re doing.)

The Sox didn't give up on him.  I think he just priced himself off the team.  In the Sox defense, in the 7 years he was with the team, he gradually raised his BA from the low .200's to .240 his last 2 years.  He did have a couple of good years in Atlanta when he hit .270 and .281.  But this year, he's at .221 and fans are b****ing on the talk shows that he should be dumped because of the poor hitting and the large number of passed balls and the inability to throw out base runners.

While he's always had a PB problem, he is also regarded as one of the best pitch-framers in the game.  I wonder if the 2 are related.  Is he so concerned with bringing in the borderline pitches to get the strike call, that the ball sometimes goes off the edge of his mitt.  Just a thought.

[Quin]

23 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

It’s amazing that Semien was managed in two seasons by a six time Gold Glove third baseman and the manager couldn’t teach him anything.  It just goes to show that great players don’t always make great managers, even though the Sox organization seems to think so.

I remember thinking that Ventura would make a good 3B coach or maybe even a bench coach after Ozzie tantrum'd out. I figured maybe he'd be able to provide a calming presence, teach some guys, etc.

I'm so relieved that when I revisit the "Ventura hired as manager thread" that I'm confused and frustrated and not happy.

What will never make sense, as @Balta1701 has pointed out before, is how the team overall developed from Ventura Year 1 to the rest of his tenure.

[kitekrazy]

23 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

It’s amazing that Semien was managed in two seasons by a six time Gold Glove third baseman and the manager couldn’t teach him anything.  It just goes to show that great players don’t always make great managers, even though the Sox organization seems to think so.

How many in the organization were great players?  They should try to recruit people in habitually winning organizations.

[kitekrazy]

On 8/12/2019 at 11:51 AM, Moan4Yoan said:

You need to look at players outside of Eloy, Abreu, and the Sox roster.  What Tatis Jr. is doing at age 20 is far more special than anything Eloy has done thus far at age 22.

Could it be the other players around him?

Edited August 13, 2019 by kitekrazy

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Could it be the other players around him?

Because the Padres are loaded with talent/Manny Machado makes all the difference?

[kitekrazy]

54 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

The Sox didn't give up on him.  I think he just priced himself off the team.  In the Sox defense, in the 7 years he was with the team, he gradually raised his BA from the low .200's to .240 his last 2 years.  He did have a couple of good years in Atlanta when he hit .270 and .281.  But this year, he's at .221 and fans are b****ing on the talk shows that he should be dumped because of the poor hitting and the large number of passed balls and the inability to throw out base runners.

While he's always had a PB problem, he is also regarded as one of the best pitch-framers in the game.  I wonder if the 2 are related.  Is he so concerned with bringing in the borderline pitches to get the strike call, that the ball sometimes goes off the edge of his mitt.  Just a thought.

I think Tyler Flowers just isn't good at baseball no matter what stat you throw out.

[kitekrazy]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Because the Padres are loaded with talent/Manny Machado makes all the difference?

I can't get it out of my head thinking Tatis is on the Astros.

[kitekrazy]

49 minutes ago, Quin said:

I remember thinking that Ventura would make a good 3B coach or maybe even a bench coach after Ozzie tantrum'd out. I figured maybe he'd be able to provide a calming presence, teach some guys, etc.

I'm so relieved that when I revisit the "Ventura hired as manager thread" that I'm confused and frustrated and not happy.

What will never make sense, as @Balta1701 has pointed out before, is how the team overall developed from Ventura Year 1 to the rest of his tenure.

Asking him to be manager is worse than the bad trades.  You eliminated a lot of experienced candidates.  Star players should realize it's never a good idea to be a manager. It erases the fan's remembrance of them being a great player.  

[Flash]

3 hours ago, greg775 said:

Eloy gets him out of any penalty box. It stands as one of the great trades in White Sox history. He's going to hit 30-40 home runs without even trying; 50 many years trying and with the juiced ball. Tatis is one of the worst trades in the history of sports potentially but like I said, Eloy, is that good.

Hope you are right about Eloy but it would sure be nice if one of our prospects entered the league with authority; i.e. Alonso, Acuna, Sosa, Tatis, etc. And while we can argue how bad the Tatis trade was, I think the Dodgers trade of Yordan Alvarez for Josh Field was at least as bad. Alvarez, like Alonso, were not nearly as highly rated as Eloy and they started tearing it up as soon as they arrived and don't appear as though they will be slowing down anytime soon. 

[caulfield12]

50 minutes ago, Flash said:

Hope you are right about Eloy but it would sure be nice if one of our prospects entered the league with authority; i.e. Alonso, Acuna, Sosa, Tatis, etc. And while we can argue how bad the Tatis trade was, I think the Dodgers trade of Yordan Alvarez for Josh Field was at least as bad. Alvarez, like Alonso, were not nearly as highly rated as Eloy and they started tearing it up as soon as they arrived and don't appear as though they will be slowing down anytime soon. 

https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-yordan-alvarez-dodgers-cuban-signings-mistakes-astros-20190706-story.html

Almost an exact copy of the Tatis deal (never even set foot onto an milb field), except the Dodgers thought they needed Fields for the playoffs...whereas the White Sox in 2016 were just desperately trying to stay in contention after the bottom fell out in that Rangers’ game.

The Astros and Padres obviously knew the Latin American talent better than anyone else.

 

He sought Yordan Alvarez, a lightly touted, teenage position player with questionable power, a relative unknown who has developed into one of the sport’s most promising young sluggers and a fixture in Houston’s lineup.

Alvarez, now 22, had been signed by the Dodgers less than two months before Luhnow asked about him. He had yet to play a game in the Dodgers organization. He never would. The Dodgers agreed to trade him for Fields. They have watched from afar as Alvarez has blossomed into a 6-foot-5, 225-pound force. Fields was cut by the Dodgers this spring after 2 1/2 seasons.

“Looking back on it now,” Friedman said recently with a rueful smile earlier, “we obviously wish we would have said yes to other names they asked for before him. It’s pretty special watching what he’s doing in the batter’s box.”

Alvarez debuted in June and hit seven home runs in his first 16 games. He doubled Friday against the Angels and entered Saturday’s game with a 1.116 on-base-plus-slugging percentage.

Edited August 13, 2019 by caulfield12

[greg775]

5 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

The Sox didn't give up on him.  I think he just priced himself off the team.

I disagree. The Sox certainly could have paid him what he wanted for a few more years. If the Sox can't afford Tyler Flowers ... wow. I just wish Jerry would sell the team. He's got his one WS ring. 

[bubba phillips]

53 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I disagree. The Sox certainly could have paid him what he wanted for a few more years. If the Sox can't afford Tyler Flowers ... wow. I just wish Jerry would sell the team. He's got his one WS ring. 

I didn't phrase that right.  I didn't mean that the Sox couldn't afford him.  I meant that they thought he wasn't worth the salary he was earning, going forward.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, bubba phillips said:

I didn't phrase that right.  I didn't mean that the Sox couldn't afford him.  I meant that they thought he wasn't worth the salary he was earning, going forward.

He has been worth 12 fWAR in less than four seasons...how much would that have been worth bringing in a free agent to put up those numbers?  

$75-100 million?  Which is basically about the same we are talking about paying Grandal now.

Even Avi with a 1.6 fWAR would have been worth well more than he was going to get in arbitration.

[bubba phillips]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He has been worth 12 fWAR in less than four seasons...how much would that have been worth bringing in a free agent to put up those numbers?  

$75-100 million?  Which is basically about the same we are talking about paying Grandal now.

Even Avi with a 1.6 fWAR would have been worth well more than he was going to get in arbitration.

If he was so good, then why did the Sox release him?

[Hatchetman]

15 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

If he was so good, then why did the Sox release him?

Because they’re stupid?

[GermanSoxFan]

Tyler Flowers sucks, his framing numbers don‘t offset his deficiencies at blocking and throwing. His good hitting seasons were fueled by inflated BABIP numbers. What kind of revisionist history is this?

[greg775]

27 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Tyler Flowers sucks, his framing numbers don‘t offset his deficiencies at blocking and throwing. His good hitting seasons were fueled by inflated BABIP numbers. What kind of revisionist history is this?

I don't think he sucks.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

I didn't phrase that right.  I didn't mean that the Sox couldn't afford him.  I meant that they thought he wasn't worth the salary he was earning, going forward.

Thanks for clarifying Bubba.

[caulfield12]

41 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Tyler Flowers sucks, his framing numbers don‘t offset his deficiencies at blocking and throwing. His good hitting seasons were fueled by inflated BABIP numbers. What kind of revisionist history is this?

Then let’s just throw out using fWAR and bWAR and go back to traditional Greg Metrics instead...so he suddenly became “lucky” as soon as he left the White Sox, just like Tatis and Semien.

[Moan4Yoan]

5 hours ago, bubba phillips said:

If he was so good, then why did the Sox release him?

 

4 hours ago, Hatchetman said:

Because they’re stupid?

Exactly.  Bubba, obviously Hahn made the wrong decision just like many other acquisitions last offseason and overall in his career.

[poppysox]

We should just sign Grandal and we can forget about Flowers.  Once automated balls & strikes happens...framing won't be worth the price of tap water.

[Jose Abreu]

 

[steveno89]

7 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

 

Shame we couldn't find a way to flip Nova at the deadline for a useful piece

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Shame we couldn't find a way to flip Nova at the deadline for a useful piece

Not really the type of guy contenders are looking for. In all likelihood he wouldn't make a playoff roster. Sure he's had a great run lately but he's also capable of badness. Overall just mediocre/average. But his innings pitched and health has really been valuable to the Sox this year in that he's been the glue that prevented the staff from being a bigger nightmare than it was.