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Eloy Jiménez

2019-2020 Official NBA Thread

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i mean, why shoot high?  It's not like you are a historic franchise or anything.

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So Gar and Pax will no longer have much say (yaaay) but will still be around. Typical Reinsdorf.

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17 hours ago, SoxAce said:

So Gar and Pax will no longer have much say (yaaay) but will still be around. Typical Reinsdorf.

Hopefully it isn't  a Kenny Williams situation. It's hard for me to care about the NBA when the Bulls suck. Giannis is awesome though. 

Edited by Jack Parkman

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On 4/4/2020 at 8:19 AM, Jack Parkman said:

Hopefully it isn't  a Kenny Williams situation. It's hard for me to care about the NBA when the Bulls suck. Giannis is awesome though. 

Pax has pretty regularly said he'll do as much or little (including walk away) as the new front office wants. Not sure why everyone here seems to rattle on, regarding Pax.  For pete sake, it has been somewhat widely reported that Pax was the driving force behind the change.  He has had a rough few years (and for what happened and how he let Gar get too much power / be a snake with Thibs...he is responsible)...but I will always remember back fondly for the fact that Pax gave me a pretty darn enjoyable run with the Bulls (not 90's Bulls good...but from the Deng/Hinrich/Gordon Bulls to the Thib Bulls....I had a very good run of enjoyable basketball. 

Last 3 years or so have just been miserable and I love basketball.    

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If Karnisovas really is clearing house, who are the candidates we want for head coach?

i imagine Atkinson and Hammon would be top candidates.

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1 hour ago, YoYoIsMyHero said:

#FireGarPax era is over

Lets hope. Pax at least said he'll leave if that is what Karnisovas wants. Hopefully Michael and Jerry Reinsdorf won't get in the way when/if he wants Gar out too (who really should be the first one shown the door). I'm interested to see who he picks as GM now.

Edited by SoxAce
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8 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Pax and Gar stay, it's just window dressing

Exactly.  Nothing improves until these deadbeats are officially removed from the organization.

Per K.C. Johnson:

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-negotiating-make-arturas-karnisovas-head-of-basketball-operations?amp=1

“John Paxson is expected to move into a senior advisory role with no daily presence around the team, sources said. He has offered to help Karnisovas in any manner in which Karnisovas sees fit.

The future of current general manager Gar Forman, who has moved largely into a scouting role, will be discussed.“

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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I'm optimistic about Karsinovas. 

1) Unlike what we thought just last month, he was not hired to be a GM, he was given VP of basketball operations and is hiring his own GM

2) He really does have a great track record, and the denver f.o. has done excellent for really the 21st century and just never got that truly exceptional player to lead them over the hump in the west, but that is luck. They did everything outside of luck to succeed.

3) He is not coming in as the old school, we know how to do basketball type hire that paxson was and bulls have acted like they are. His background is houston and denver, that's great.

I'm still unimpressed with michael reinsdorf, but he did pull the trigger here.

1) It's embarrassing for all involved that paxson and gar have not been fired. Like, guys have some damn integrity and resign! But regardless, if Karsinovas is good, I'd expect forman gone right away, and paxson quietly exit out the backdoor next year. If you leave people in this org to backstab you they will.

2) I dislike their process. No reason to announce you will not go after agents. And while I liked many names, I still did not see that shift that shows the bulls aspire and believe they are the marquee franchise they give lipservice too. No going after actual presidents of successful teams. Specifically seeming to target GMs that succeeded without stars or money, because the bulls still think that the michael jordan era was actually about being scrappy underdogs.

3) Of their initial four targets, 3 just backed out. And then their other interviews are embarrassing. Danny Ferry got fired for talking racist shit about a revered bull in luol deng, a player the bulls nearly killed. Bryan Colangelo resigned out of embarrassment for "his wife" having a burner account talking shit about players. What players want to then join up with that front office in a stars driven league? That's being nice to bryan who absolutely sucked after his dad stopped whispering to him what to do.

But, I think Karsinovas is a good hire. I think he can gain power and push the pathetic tendencies of this org to the side. There will be brighter days ahead, I'm sure of. 

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6 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Exactly.  Nothing improves until these deadbeats are officially removed from the organization.

Per K.C. Johnson:

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-negotiating-make-arturas-karnisovas-head-of-basketball-operations?amp=1

“John Paxson is expected to move into a senior advisory role with no daily presence around the team, sources said. He has offered to help Karnisovas in any manner in which Karnisovas sees fit.

The future of current general manager Gar Forman, who has moved largely into a scouting role, will be discussed.“

Paxson might stick around as a senior adviser and I don't think that is a bad thing. Pax has made is very clear this isn't his show and Karnisovas is going to get the reigns to hire his guys.  If he wants to pick Paxson's brain, Pax is there for him. If he doesn't...no biggie. Pax is so loyal to Jerry he would never do anything to intentionally undermine him (I genuinely believe that).

Gar on the other hand has already been demoted massively. Cowley has been spot and ahead of everything on the Bulls and that point has been clear for a long time. Karni has 10 times the power Gar has (if not more). If Karni doesn't like Gar after he meets with him, I'm sure he will be out.  These are pretty sweeping changes Bulls are making. New VP, New GM, likely a new Asst. GM...new scouts...probably new coaching...and one can only hope new medical team and further buildout of its analytics team.  

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I have a feeling they are going to move pretty quick on the GM front. Lots of reports (no one should be surprised) that as part of the interview process, Karni already listed his proposed candidates for the various positions (and I'm assuming that included head coach).  I suspect they will move fast on GM and I honestly wonder if they won't just hire a new coach before the season restarts (at the rate they are moving).  Coach won't be able to implement new system, but at the very least, gets a little bit of time with the players.  

Also, I am going to bet on Michael Finley as one of the candidates that emerges (Cuban has spoke very highly of him). Bulls also reportedly had an informal interview with Nazr Mohammed, who has worked in OKC's front office under Presti (this was for an undetermined front-office role).  He could also be raiding some people from Denver or Houston.

More I read about this guy, we are going to see a very different operation emerge. Lots of international experience but worked in some pretty modern front-offices in the league before climbing to his current role with Nuggets.  Seems to have been influenced a lot by Morey (in the sense of...I expect we will see MUCH more consistent roster churn). Houston always felt like one of those orgs that is always on the phone, always trying for anything at all times.  He seems like he has a lot of that in him based upon some quotes I read...that said, I also think he appreciates drafting and developing a bit more than Morey does.  I'm getting pretty darn excited.  

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On head coach front, I could see the following candidates emerging.  Somewhere I wonder if Thibbs name gets thrown around with new people in and the Gar reign coming to an end.  Just don't know if Thibbs has learned to take a step back when it comes to his ability to "play nice". But man if he could, I would be all over him as i still think he is an excellent head coach. 

Messina

Hammond

Adrian Griffin

Kenny Atkinson

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2 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Paxson might stick around as a senior adviser and I don't think that is a bad thing. Pax has made is very clear this isn't his show and Karnisovas is going to get the reigns to hire his guys.  If he wants to pick Paxson's brain, Pax is there for him. If he doesn't...no biggie. Pax is so loyal to Jerry he would never do anything to intentionally undermine him (I genuinely believe that).

Gar on the other hand has already been demoted massively. Cowley has been spot and ahead of everything on the Bulls and that point has been clear for a long time. Karni has 10 times the power Gar has (if not more). If Karni doesn't like Gar after he meets with him, I'm sure he will be out.  These are pretty sweeping changes Bulls are making. New VP, New GM, likely a new Asst. GM...new scouts...probably new coaching...and one can only hope new medical team and further buildout of its analytics team.  

Your points are taken, but what other franchises do things like this?  Hire a new guy to take over, don’t fire the previous regime, and let the new guy decide what happens?  It just seems like a very strange way of running a team.

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26 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Your points are taken, but what other franchises do things like this?  Hire a new guy to take over, don’t fire the previous regime, and let the new guy decide what happens?  It just seems like a very strange way of running a team.

You're purposely leaving out details so you can complain. It's been explicitly stated he has full control over basketball operations, he is the now the voice in the room. He has full control to hire a GM, coach and scouting staff. Paxson may stay on as some sort of advisor. I know you have a massive hard on for the Reinsdorf family, and yes, most franchises don't have ownership groups that are this loyal to their soldiers, but unless you're question the background of Karsinovas and this specific hire, this is a tremendously positive day for the Bulls franchise. 

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GarPax have no meaningful influence. If you're in the basketball organization, Karsinovas is your boss. Period. He has 100% of the say.

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4 minutes ago, Eloy Jiménez said:

GarPax have no meaningful influence. If you're in the basketball organization, Karsinovas is your boss. Period. He has 100% of the say.

This is a dude that turned down other offers to be promoted. HE could turn out to be a disaster, but he had real clout in the league and this was a really good power hire by the Bulls. He wasn't taking a job he wasn't empowered in (and he had all the leverage in the world when it came to that).  I bet the GM emerges pretty quickly.  

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2 hours ago, Tony said:

You're purposely leaving out details so you can complain. It's been explicitly stated he has full control over basketball operations, he is the now the voice in the room. He has full control to hire a GM, coach and scouting staff. Paxson may stay on as some sort of advisor. I know you have a massive hard on for the Reinsdorf family, and yes, most franchises don't have ownership groups that are this loyal to their soldiers, but unless you're question the background of Karsinovas and this specific hire, this is a tremendously positive day for the Bulls franchise. 

Bulls fan and Nuggets season ticket holder here.  Happy with this hire, and there's absolutely no way Karsinovas makes this move if he doesn't have control.

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On the minority front, didn't the Bulls try to interview Webster (but were denied by Toronto).  He is half Japanese (from his mom side). He would have been the only other candidate I would have considered (but Raptors didn't appear to be having any of it).  I don't see how anyone can make the claims that some have over JR, given the fact that he hired KW (he was one of the first minority executive in MLB) and BJ Armstrong long had a very high front office role in the organization.  Cartwright at head coach, etc.    

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One thing that's probably attractive is you are essentially building a modern nba org from scratch. The bulls had smallest scouting staff in league, smallest analytics staff. While that sounds bad, I am sure there are a bunch of people in those departments that would love that challenge. 

 

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I don't believe the bulls front office is racist, it was just a bad look that all of the publicly admitted interviews were of no minorit.  and only after people were like "wtf?" did they leak to cowley that, oh yea, we asked three minority candidates for interviews but were declined.

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42 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Bulls GM Gar Forman had a slow rise to power and an even slower demise

I want both Pax and Gar gone but this is why I've wanted Gar gone for a looooong while now, far more than even Pax. 

As an Iowa alum, i am admittedly a bit prejudice, but I never understood the Bulls' fascination with Iowa State. First Floyd, then Fizer, then Gar, then Hoiberg.  That's a big 0fer.

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