greg775 Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, poppysox said: I would think RH is working on a 1 or 2 year extension with Abreu. If a deal can't be reached Jose will go to the highest bidder. Can't end up with nothing for him at the seasons end. My guess is 2 years at 25M with an option. ' Richie .. this is exactly what I proposed basically. I said three years 39 million with a team option. This is 2 years 25 million (12.5 per year) with no third year. Everybody loved poppy's post and hated mine yet both offers were almost the same. Jose isn't exactly ancient. Next year will be his age 33 season. What's wrong with giving a loyal soldier 13 mill a year when you consider what the Sox paid Alonso? Why not give some of jerry's nestegg to a guy who deserves some money?? Also I love somebody on here saying 120 Jose RBIs next year are "solid numbers." 120 RBIs are a lot of RBIs. Excellent numbers, not just solid. I can't believe how we take Jose for granted around here. Even if we paid him 13 mill the next three years and he averaged .225 with 21 homers and 76 RBIs I wouldn't hate him because of what he's done in past seasons. I don't think he's going to suddenly reek in age 33 and 34 seasons. It's kind of like KC fans with alex gordon. Even though he's dipped fans don't begrudge him some $$s for past performance. Although Gordon does have a boatload of RBIs this season. Edited July 6, 2019 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, greg775 said: Richie .. this is exactly what I proposed basically. I said three years 39 million with a team option. This is 2 years 25 million (12.5 per year) with no third year. Everybody loved poppy's post and hated mine yet both offers were almost the same. Jose isn't exactly ancient. Next year will be his age 33 season. What's wrong with giving a loyal soldier 13 mill a year when you consider what the Sox paid Alonso? Why not give some of jerry's nestegg to a guy who deserves some money?? Also I love somebody on here saying 120 Jose RBIs next year are "solid numbers." 120 RBIs are a lot of RBIs. Excellent numbers, not just solid. I can't believe how we take Jose for granted around here. Even if we paid him 13 mill the next three years and he averaged .225 with 21 homers and 76 RBIs I wouldn't hate him because of what he's done in past seasons. I don't think he's going to suddenly reek in age 33 and 34 seasons. It's kind of like KC fans with alex gordon. Even though he's dipped fans don't begrudge him some $$s for past performance. Although Gordon does have a boatload of RBIs this season. There really is no reason to give Abreu more than a 1 year deal. Vaughn should be up in 2021 and we have a boat load of cheap 1B/DH types that will be in prime years. That money would be better served on RP/SP/RF than a 35 year old Abreu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, ron883 said: That's actually just greg's account over there I can't believe how some people aren't "sentimental" any more about guys who have been with the team a long time. I get the feeling the ideal team to some fans is one in which every player is between the ages of 25 and 29 with the exception of some pitchers. For some reasons the modern stat minded fan doesn't mind having some elder pitchers on the team. In my perfect world, a guy like Jose is our feel good story of our next postseason or 2 and he is knocking the ball all over the park in leading us to ALCS and WS titles and he's the guy crying and hoisting the trophy during the parade(s). Edited July 6, 2019 by greg775 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 11 hours ago, vilehoopster said: You use stats that nobody knows anything about, stats that are so numerologic and obsurce that they hide any reality. Like what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: There really is no reason to give Abreu more than a 1 year deal. Vaughn should be up in 2021 and we have a boat load of cheap 1B/DH types that will be in prime years. That money would be better served on RP/SP/RF than a 35 year old Abreu. BackDoor: Are u of the opinion there will not be enough money to throw around? Remember this is a team with owner and partners having so much profit the last few seasons cause of the low payroll the money has made their wallets George Costanza-sized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 Just now, greg775 said: BackDoor: Are u of the opinion there will not be enough money to throw around? Remember this is a team with owner and partners having so much profit the last few seasons cause of the low payroll the money has made their wallets George Costanza-sized. We should be spending a ton of money over the next couple years. That doesn't mean we should be paying Abreu for past production in the middle of a playoff hunt. That money could be better spent on roster weakness . 13 mil a year is a pretty good relief pitcher. I'd rather have that than an old Abreu. I like Jose. I just have a hard time seeing how he fits on the team in a couple years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 1 hour ago, BackDoorBreach said: We should be spending a ton of money over the next couple years. That doesn't mean we should be paying Abreu for past production in the middle of a playoff hunt. That money could be better spent on roster weakness . 13 mil a year is a pretty good relief pitcher. I'd rather have that than an old Abreu. I like Jose. I just have a hard time seeing how he fits on the team in a couple years. If I count Madrigal and Vaughn as covering positions next year (and yes, I am counting Vaughn, Madrigal, and Robert all as starting in the bigs by June 1 of last year) there are very few positions for this roster left to fill.There is plenty of money to sign the top starting pitcher on the market and the top reliever on the market if that's what we ant to do, and even then we still won't hit a $100 million payroll. Paying Jose Abreu fairly as a 1-2 fWAR player at $13 million a year, especially given that he kinda counts as a player-coach...I'm totally ok with that. The only downside is that he's a righty and this is a very right handed lineup, but frankly, if being too right handed winds up costing us in a playoff series in 2020...you know what? That means we made the playoffs. Fix stuff afterwards! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 12 hours ago, Eminor3rd said: You've argued it forcefully, but you haven't provided any evidence, so it's not a great argument. For example, you made up a stat in your original post where you would find the percentage of RBI that a batter converts to an RBI. You hypothesized that it would correlate well with who you already think good hitters are. I imagine it WOULD correlate pretty well. Probably about as well as RBIs correlate, in fact. But you know what would correlate even better? wRC+. And there's tons and tons of research that proves it. I'm guessing, based on the stance you're taking, that you don't understand wRC+, but I bet if you read about it, you'd like it a lot. The basic premise behind it is pretty similar to your RBI/chances stat, actually, it just uses events that are actually stable and predictive of future performance, unlike RBI. If I'm sounding condescending, I'm really not trying to. I'm not suggesting that you aren't smart or can't understand wRC+, I'm just saying I don't think you've tried -- maybe because it isn't interesting to you or you already have negative feelings associated with other stats like it. I don't think you'd get snide remarks very often if you took the time to learn about the stats that you're railing against. Like, if you made an informed argument about why wRC+ ISN'T better than RBI or RBI/chances, in terms identifying the most productive hitting seasons, I don't think anyone would react negatively, even if he/she disagreed with your conclusion. That's where the anti-vaxxer analogy came from. I used it because I assumed you WEREN'T an anti-vaxxer. As you know and have demonstrated, it makes all kinds of sense to vaccinate your child. For someone to believe he/she SHOULDN'T do so, that person would have to believe some things that aren't true about vaccines, which means that person would have to have not really done much research on the subject. The whole "but different sites can't even agree on a formula for WAR!" thing actually tracks pretty well with that. Lots of people hear that line, and decide simply to dismiss the whole concept without ever checking the veracity of the statement. So I think the analogy works. It's not meant to call you ignorant, but it is meant to illustrate that ignorance is the result of choosing to be uninformed on a topic. You are very informed on the topic. But it's my belief that you are one of a few. The rest of the people who throw around advanced stats are are just following a trend for people in their age group. I'm sure you know quite a few people here who are just as informed as you but I think even you might have to admit the advanced stats are misused to a high degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 On 7/4/2019 at 3:14 PM, ron883 said: Comparing the Vaughn pick to the Lance Broadway pick... Lol. That's bad. As is saying Jose refuses to DH is hilariously bad and when asked to prove it .. crickets. Jose has DH'd 26% of his games played this year which is way up from 10% last year. Also didn't he ask you if you thought Vaughn will get any kind of significant time in the Majors in 2020 that you also didn't answer ? Assuming Vaughn gets any significant playing time next year is a long shot. It's also laughable if you think he was comparing Vaughn to Lance Broadway. I know you know he means the Sox have an unsuccessful recent history with 1st round picks. Not a single soul should be thinking Vaughn will spend a large portion of next season with the Sox and I wanted him in Winston -Salem and the Sox started him a level lower at Kannapolis .Even him making opening day 2021 might be a stretch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: As is saying Jose refuses to DH is hilariously bad and when asked to prove it .. crickets. Jose has DH'd 26% of his games played this year which is way up from 10% last year. Also didn't he ask you if you thought Vaughn will get any kind of significant time in the Majors in 2020 that you also didn't answer ? Assuming Vaughn gets any significant playing time next year is a long shot. It's also laughable if you think he was comparing Vaughn to Lance Broadway. I know you know he means the Sox have an unsuccessful recent history with 1st round picks. Not a single soul should be thinking Vaughn will spend a large portion of next season with the Sox and I wanted him in Winston -Salem and the Sox started him a level lower at Kannapolis .Even him making opening day 2021 might be a stretch I'll ban bet you that he makes the majors by opening day 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 36 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: As is saying Jose refuses to DH is hilariously bad and when asked to prove it .. crickets. Jose has DH'd 26% of his games played this year which is way up from 10% last year. Also didn't he ask you if you thought Vaughn will get any kind of significant time in the Majors in 2020 that you also didn't answer ? Assuming Vaughn gets any significant playing time next year is a long shot. It's also laughable if you think he was comparing Vaughn to Lance Broadway. I know you know he means the Sox have an unsuccessful recent history with 1st round picks. Not a single soul should be thinking Vaughn will spend a large portion of next season with the Sox and I wanted him in Winston -Salem and the Sox started him a level lower at Kannapolis .Even him making opening day 2021 might be a stretch https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/2/19/18328665/team-player-jose-abreu-prepares-for-what-could-be-last-season-with-white-sox "Abreu always has made clear his disdain for being the designated hitter" The proof is in the pudding. There is a reason we kept seeing him at 1st while a better fielding Alonso was the DH. Abreu better settle into that DH role and accept it. His defense will only get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: You are very informed on the topic. But it's my belief that you are one of a few. The rest of the people who throw around advanced stats are are just following a trend for people in their age group. I'm sure you know quite a few people here who are just as informed as you but I think even you might have to admit the advanced stats are misused to a high degree. But that’s the thing, it’s not the advanced metrics that are the problem but rather the application by some who take them as gospel. I use advanced metrics all the time, but accept the fact that most of them have their own flaws or limitations. That being said, I think it’s far more egregious to write off advanced metrics all together than to rely on them exclusively. Both will lead to narrow minded decision making, but the former completely ignores the objective, unbiased way of looking at things that make advanced metrics such a powerful tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 35 minutes ago, ron883 said: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/2/19/18328665/team-player-jose-abreu-prepares-for-what-could-be-last-season-with-white-sox "Abreu always has made clear his disdain for being the designated hitter" The proof is in the pudding. There is a reason we kept seeing him at 1st while a better fielding Alonso was the DH. Abreu better settle into that DH role and accept it. His defense will only get worse. “If I’m playing first base or DH, or he’s playing first base or DH, it doesn’t matter,’’ Abreu said through a translator at SoxFest. “What matters is how we can make the team better.’’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 15 hours ago, greg775 said: I can't believe how some people aren't "sentimental" any more about guys who have been with the team a long time. I get the feeling the ideal team to some fans is one in which every player is between the ages of 25 and 29 with the exception of some pitchers. For some reasons the modern stat minded fan doesn't mind having some elder pitchers on the team. In my perfect world, a guy like Jose is our feel good story of our next postseason or 2 and he is knocking the ball all over the park in leading us to ALCS and WS titles and he's the guy crying and hoisting the trophy during the parade(s). Greg...you have every right to like any player and have an opinion just like all of us. We're fans and have cheap opinions. Nothing is going to change because of anything said here. I won't be surprised if your closer on what happens in the Jose situation then the people giving you a hard time. The FO lived with Konerko far past his expiration date. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ron883 said: I'll ban bet you that he makes the majors by opening day 2021 Time for @CaliSoxFanViaSWside to take one for the team 😜 Edited July 6, 2019 by Eloy Jiménez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 To those who think Jose is ancient at age 32 ... explain Nelson Cruz's fine season at 39? It's all cliche. Cruz woulda looked nice in our lineup instead of Alonso this season. See what I mean about contending? You make the RIGHT free agent signings and you might win something without all out tanking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, greg775 said: To those who think Jose is ancient at age 32 ... explain Nelson Cruz's fine season at 39? It's all cliche. Cruz woulda looked nice in our lineup instead of Alonso this season. See what I mean about contending? You make the RIGHT free agent signings and you might win something without all out tanking. For the same reason McGwire and Sosa we’re hitting homers into their mid and late 30’s. In 2013, Nelson Cruz was linked to the Biogenesis scandal and was suspended 50 games for PED usage. I’m guessing his drug usage just got smarter over the years. The PED users are always one step ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: For the same reason McGwire and Sosa we’re hitting homers into their mid and late 30’s. In 2013, Nelson Cruz was linked to the Biogenesis scandal and was suspended 50 games for PED usage. I’m guessing his drug usage just got smarter over the years. The PED users are always one step ahead. This post needs a do-over. He's not cheating now. Cmon. Right now advanced stats are the rage and the idea that baseball players are pretty much worthless over the age of 32 is the rage with fans. I mean hitters. For some reason pitchers are allowed to be older. this is a passing phase, a passing cliche. Some guys are gonna hit all the way to age 40 like Cruz, some won't. It is downright silly to dismiss hitters cause they are about to enter an age 33 season. My gawd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, greg775 said: This post needs a do-over. He's not cheating now. Cmon. Right now advanced stats are the rage and the idea that baseball players are pretty much worthless over the age of 32 is the rage with fans. I mean hitters. For some reason pitchers are allowed to be older. this is a passing phase, a passing cliche. Some guys are gonna hit all the way to age 40 like Cruz, some won't. It is downright silly to dismiss hitters cause they are about to enter an age 33 season. My gawd. Every time new testing is used to find the cheaters, the cheaters find new and better PEDs or masking agents. Also, it’s not like all the muscle he built up from prior years of PED use just disappears. Edited July 7, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Every time new testing is used to find the cheaters, the cheaters find new and better PEDs or masking agents. Also, it’s not like all the muscle he built up from prior years of PED use just disappears. Well, I guess his numbers at the age of 39 are outliers caused by PEDs. My gosh. The lengths anti age people will go. You are making a huge assumption instead of just acknowledging some guys/many guys will be able to hit into their late 30s and early 40s. It's just current fad that you don't want a hitter over 33. Now a pitcher? That's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 18 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: But that’s the thing, it’s not the advanced metrics that are the problem but rather the application by some who take them as gospel. I use advanced metrics all the time, but accept the fact that most of them have their own flaws or limitations. That being said, I think it’s far more egregious to write off advanced metrics all together than to rely on them exclusively. Both will lead to narrow minded decision making, but the former completely ignores the objective, unbiased way of looking at things that make advanced metrics such a powerful tool. I agree and I am slowly learning more about using using them. I think it's just harder for the older fan to get into the advanced math used for advanced stats than the simpler math required for the old stats. Even the more mathematically inclined still have to put in a lot of time to really understand them which is why they are so misused by the new generation of advanced stats users because not even they take the time to really understand their exact function. Also there are so many new advanced stats that learning about how to use them makes it even more difficult . Batting average , RBI etc have been around 100 years. I'd just like to see if many of the new stats survive the cut in a few years or will they continue to come up with more and more of them to boggle my mind even more . And not just my mind but apparently many of those who use them constantly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 18 hours ago, ron883 said: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/2/19/18328665/team-player-jose-abreu-prepares-for-what-could-be-last-season-with-white-sox "Abreu always has made clear his disdain for being the designated hitter" The proof is in the pudding. There is a reason we kept seeing him at 1st while a better fielding Alonso was the DH. Abreu better settle into that DH role and accept it. His defense will only get worse. What proof ? That only confirms what I said about he prefers not to DH not that he refuses since I already told you he is DHing a lot more this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 19 hours ago, ron883 said: I'll ban bet you that he makes the majors by opening day 2021 Ha I said making opening day 2021 MIGHT BE A STRETCH. I didn't say it was impossible. Besides it's stupid to bet against something I really hope does happen.I want him to be great like all the rest of us. What I said is just strictly from knowing where he is now to to how far he still has to go. It' senseless to root or bet against the success of our prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, greg775 said: Well, I guess his numbers at the age of 39 are outliers caused by PEDs. My gosh. The lengths anti age people will go. You are making a huge assumption instead of just acknowledging some guys/many guys will be able to hit into their late 30s and early 40s. It's just current fad that you don't want a hitter over 33. Now a pitcher? That's fine. I gave you a very valid counterpoint to your argument that you weren’t even aware of on Cruz’s record and you simply dismissed it. There is no debating with you or getting through to you. Once your mind is made up, that is it. You don’t think there is any likelihood that Cruz, who has cheated in the past is still doing the same to improve his performance in his old age? Yes, hitters can be productive in their old age but Cruz at 39 is the massive outlier, not the norm. So why would a young team want to go against the law of averages and sign a bunch of older guys? It isn’t being “anti-age.” It’s using common sense and realizing that the career peak for most clean players is in their late 20’s to early 30’s, not their mid to late 30’s. Edited July 7, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 18 hours ago, Eloy Jiménez said: Time for @CaliSoxFanViaSWside to take one for the team 😜 Oh 1st time i think anyone ever put me in a tag. Thanks . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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