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KnightsOnMintSt

Luis Robert and Nick Madrigal

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1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I would give Grandal 4-years, $60 million in a second.  $60 million guaranteed ($15 million per year) is easily manageable for the Sox and would have a big impact on the lineup.  Sure, I would love to see the Sox throw a big contract at Cole but he could get 6-years and $200 million.  For much less money and risk, a guy like Grandal could still make a big impact.

Also, I don’t care how McCann finishes the season.  He’s too big of a risk as a one year wonder even if he finishes strong.  Besides, having two good catchers is a great problem to have.  Add Collins to the roster and you could play some interesting lineups to get 2 of these 3 bats in the lineup at C, DH, and 1B while keeping a viable catcher on the bench getting them all a good amount of at bats as well as keeping them all fresh for an entire season.

I understand your thinking on McCann and he would be an excellent backup with just his defense. Also cut Grandal 's catching duties and utilize his bat to prevent his drop off late in year.   But if Grandal already turned down 4-60, as I said earlier I would guess you have to go 5-80 to get him.   

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9 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

I understand your thinking on McCann and he would be an excellent backup with just his defense. Also cut Grandal 's catching duties and utilize his bat to prevent his drop off late in year.   But if Grandal already turned down 4-60, as I said earlier I would guess you have to go 5-80 to get him.   

No one is signing a 31 year old catcher for 5 years 80 million.

Theres a lot of conflicting catcher data that says grandal is a bad defender too.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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16 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No one is signing a 31 year old catcher for 5 years 80 million.

Theres a lot of conflicting catcher data that says grandal is a bad defender too.

Honestly, Grandal being 31 is my main reservation to signing him to a 4 year deal.

I know they also need pitching but add Grandal and one of the free agent outfielders, along with Robert and Madrigal, and Abreu back on a short hometown deal, and the lineup looks pretty damn good.

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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3 hours ago, SCCWS said:

I understand your thinking on McCann and he would be an excellent backup with just his defense. Also cut Grandal 's catching duties and utilize his bat to prevent his drop off late in year.   But if Grandal already turned down 4-60, as I said earlier I would guess you have to go 5-80 to get him.   

It's a year later.

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12 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No one is signing a 31 year old catcher for 5 years 80 million.

Theres a lot of conflicting catcher data that says grandal is a bad defender too.

Supposedly a great framer but his SB%( which can be mis-leading ) is not as good as McCann. We will see where the market goes this off-season. The Mets offered him 4-60 and he turned it down. As Poppy notes it is a year later. 

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3 hours ago, SCCWS said:

Supposedly a great framer but his SB%( which can be mis-leading ) is not as good as McCann. We will see where the market goes this off-season. The Mets offered him 4-60 and he turned it down. As Poppy notes it is a year later. 

Framing is still a pretty conflicted statistic for a multitude of reasons. Mainly because its reliant on someone else doing their job poorly and because umpires do talk and grade themselves and some bias against a good framer can be created. 

Regardless, there are "things" that show grandal being a very poor defender (I believe the Dodgers felt this way, ftr). Catcher metrics are difficult to gauge.

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Maybe debut day 8 months from tonight. Probably a Thursday night game vs Rangers. Day 22 of the 2020 season. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 4:53 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No one is signing a 31 year old catcher for 5 years 80 million.

Theres a lot of conflicting catcher data that says grandal is a bad defender too.

Exactly. Just because Grandal made a mistake not taking a good offer doesn't mean he will or should get more a year later,He is someone to watch but he doesn't deserve a whole lot of money or years thrown his way.

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On 8/15/2019 at 9:14 AM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Framing is still a pretty conflicted statistic for a multitude of reasons. Mainly because its reliant on someone else doing their job poorly and because umpires do talk and grade themselves and some bias against a good framer can be created. 

Regardless, there are "things" that show grandal being a very poor defender (I believe the Dodgers felt this way, ftr). Catcher metrics are difficult to gauge.

I have been making arguments against framing for years but hey the stats people keep bringing it up as if its something that is very reliable. It's one of those things that people just use instead of truly thinking that there is a whole lot of people involved in who gets strikes called. Sure there are catchers that do a better job framing than others but it's still dependent on the pitcher and the ump . It's might be useful for example when a catcher sets up low and outside and a pitcher throws it low and outside but a pitch that is missing its intended target by a wide margin but still in the strike zone is not a pitch that can be framed well and any strike called is purely up to the umpire. We saw last night the HP ump wasnt calling pitches up and to the umpires left for either pitcher. That ump appeared to be setting up more to the right so those pitches probably just seemed too far away from him to be called strikes but many of them were strikes if the square strike zone on our TV's is to be believed.

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I am conflicted on Grandal. Love his bat. Love adding a star catcher with Vet experience...but Collins really needs a fair shot. If his recent raking is the final adjustment he needed to make, him/McCann make a great pairing, we get another lefty presence in the lineup and Abreu/Collins/Vaughn all can jump between 1B/DH for the next 2-3 seasons. Vaughn is the one that makes me think Grandal is not needed, as his bat will work it's way up by next Fall IMO. They should commit to 1-2 star quality pitchers and stay home grown for all these position players. Keeps the window longer and allows a couple early signs for Moncada/Robert as an option. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 7:53 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No one is signing a 31 year old catcher for 5 years 80 million.

Theres a lot of conflicting catcher data that says grandal is a bad defender too.

I never understood the analytics on him. He catches pitchers well, but he's not a good defender based solely on watching ~200 dodgers games while he was in LA. Plays in front of the plate, bunts, etc... he's slow to get to the ball. Also, he is one of the slowest baserunners in the game. 

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45 minutes ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

I never understood the analytics on him. He catches pitchers well, but he's not a good defender based solely on watching ~200 dodgers games while he was in LA. Plays in front of the plate, bunts, etc... he's slow to get to the ball. Also, he is one of the slowest baserunners in the game. 

I can't say I've seen dodgers data personally obviously, but I can say the Dodgers considered him to be a bad (not even average) defensive catcher.

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5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Exactly. Just because Grandal made a mistake not taking a good offer doesn't mean he will or should get more a year later,He is someone to watch but he doesn't deserve a whole lot of money or years thrown his way.

Yes. Grandal is a year older so 4/60 next year would be like having signed 5/75 last year which he probably would have taken.

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3 hours ago, dominik-keul@gmx.de said:

Yes. Grandal is a year older so 4/60 next year would be like having signed 5/75 last year which he probably would have taken.

If you think he gets 4 /60 or more i think you will be wrong but we will see.

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40 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If you think he gets 4 /60 or more i think you will be wrong but we will see.

I bet he gets close to 3/$60M with no draft compensation attached now.

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15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I bet he gets close to 3/$60M with no draft compensation attached now.

I’d still do it.  3 years and still a low total of money.  Even if Collins is legit, you will be able to find at bats for all three guys (Grandal, McCann, Collins) at C, DH, and 1B.  

Do I expect the Sox to sign him?  No.

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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On 8/9/2019 at 5:56 PM, KnightsOnMintSt said:

Assuming both these guys live up to the hype, and they're in the 2020 lineup and beyond, where would would you like to see these guys in the batting order?

Personally, I would have Madrigal lead-off and Robert bat second. I like the idea of Madrigal getting on-base, using his speed, and having Robert batting right behind him to knock him in.

Garcia and Madrigal would be my table setters at #1 and #2.

Followed by

Moncada

Abreu

Eloy

Robert

 

If Robert is going to be that good, Eloy would have a monster year batting ahead of him.

I like the idea of JD Martinez as DH if he decides to opt out.

Man, what a line-up that would be.

And I"m keeping McCann.

I don't think Vaughn is that far behind either.

It could be a fun 2020 offensively.

 

Edited by GradMc

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7 hours ago, GradMc said:

Garcia and Madrigal would be my table setters at #1 and #2.

Followed by

Moncada

Abreu

Eloy

Robert

 

If Robert is going to be that good, Eloy would have a monster year batting ahead of him.

I like the idea of JD Martinez as DH if he decides to opt out.

Man, what a line-up that would be.

And I"m keeping McCann.

I don't think Vaughn is that far behind either.

It could be a fun 2020 offensively.

 

I’m with you most of the way on this, but in a “good” White Sox lineup (and boy, when was the last time we had one of those!), I think Leury makes a nifty “second leadoff hitter” batting in the #9 slot.  I’m also keen on moving Robert up to #2 in front of Moncada, at least in year 1, to give him both at-bats and protection as he adjusts to the Major League level.  

With that, I think I’d go with this lineup:

Madrigal        2B

Robert           CF

Moncada       3B

Jimenez          LF

Abreu             DH/1B

TBD LH           1B/DH

McCann          C

Anderson       SS

Garcia             RF

 

Tons of speed both at the top and bottom of the lineup, and for me, we’d acquire a decent hitting, good glove left-handed first baseman over the winter to hold down that position until Vaughn arrives.  In the meantime, I think that could definitely be a fun offense to watch and get used to.  

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Curious about everyone's opinion on this.

If it meant the difference between a playoff berth and just missing the ppayoffs by like 3-5 games, would you rather Robert, Moncada and Kopech start the season on the Sox for those extra wins to get into the playoffs, or would you rather Madrigal and Robert come up after a few weeks to retain the extra year of control, and Kopech get his "rehab starts" in AAA?

 

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59 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Curious about everyone's opinion on this.

If it meant the difference between a playoff berth and just missing the ppayoffs by like 3-5 games, would you rather Robert, Moncada and Kopech start the season on the Sox for those extra wins to get into the playoffs, or would you rather Madrigal and Robert come up after a few weeks to retain the extra year of control, and Kopech get his "rehab starts" in AAA?

 

Playoffs 100%

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1 hour ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Curious about everyone's opinion on this.

If it meant the difference between a playoff berth and just missing the ppayoffs by like 3-5 games, would you rather Robert, Moncada and Kopech start the season on the Sox for those extra wins to get into the playoffs, or would you rather Madrigal and Robert come up after a few weeks to retain the extra year of control, and Kopech get his "rehab starts" in AAA?

 

Prefer they sign extensions and come up NOW!  Failing that...come up a few weeks later in order to retain the extra year.

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1 hour ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Curious about everyone's opinion on this.

If it meant the difference between a playoff berth and just missing the ppayoffs by like 3-5 games, would you rather Robert, Moncada and Kopech start the season on the Sox for those extra wins to get into the playoffs, or would you rather Madrigal and Robert come up after a few weeks to retain the extra year of control, and Kopech get his "rehab starts" in AAA?

 

For Robert and Madrigal, were talking about 2.5-3 weeks of early season games. It’s highly unlikely that Robert and Madrigal would make a 3-5 game difference in W/L record in that amount of time. It could be the difference in a game or two, but it’s 100% worth getting the extra season. These guys are going to play 90% of the season on the Sox. 

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2 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Curious about everyone's opinion on this.

If it meant the difference between a playoff berth and just missing the ppayoffs by like 3-5 games, would you rather Robert, Moncada and Kopech start the season on the Sox for those extra wins to get into the playoffs, or would you rather Madrigal and Robert come up after a few weeks to retain the extra year of control, and Kopech get his "rehab starts" in AAA?

 

 

52 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

For Robert and Madrigal, were talking about 2.5-3 weeks of early season games. It’s highly unlikely that Robert and Madrigal would make a 3-5 game difference in W/L record in that amount of time. It could be the difference in a game or two, but it’s 100% worth getting the extra season. These guys are going to play 90% of the season on the Sox. 

Rather they been up weeks ago .Chisox59 always wants the extra service time and minimizes the impact by calling it missing 2.5 to 3 weeks probably not being enough time to make a difference of 3-5 games. However, lets add some more games if both have an acclimation period to adjust to  MLB pitching. How long does that take for each ? If they were brought up earlier this year maybe they could start next year being good from the start. How many games are we talking about now ? What if the adjustment period is relatively short compared to Jimenez and Moncada and lasts 6 weeks. How many combined games are being effected now ? Remember 2 players so multiply the games by 2. It's simpler to just say they take the same amount of time to acclimate rather than go through who adjusts first or if one adjusts and one needs to be send back down etc.

Admittedly there are all kinds of scenarios that could affect how the Sox perform next season. The biggest is who they sign in the off season. But if we assume the Sox do enough to have a good team capable of making the playoff then I want the gun fully loaded from the start of the season and having them up this year is just a way to get the ammo as ready as it can be so it can be more explosive the second it is fired.

They are so used to tanking now that they have forgotten that if you want to win you can't make decisions based on 6 years from now . You have to do everything you can to win in the immediately future. Anything short of that they might as well just admit they are starting the season without a fully loaded weapon that even when fully loaded has a chance to misfire because the ammo wasn't loaded right.

 I think Chisox59 is one of the best posters on the board and we agree much of the time but his stance on this is baffling to me.

 

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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3 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Curious about everyone's opinion on this.

If it meant the difference between a playoff berth and just missing the ppayoffs by like 3-5 games, would you rather Robert, Moncada and Kopech start the season on the Sox for those extra wins to get into the playoffs, or would you rather Madrigal and Robert come up after a few weeks to retain the extra year of control, and Kopech get his "rehab starts" in AAA?

 

We're talking like 9 games (I remember checking after the schedule was released) and you have to think at least 2 will be PPD to later in the season.

Edited by soxfan2014

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