Machado do-over

[kitekrazy]

On 8/17/2019 at 2:48 PM, GreenSox said:

Dunn, Laroche and Frazier didn't fail because they were NL hitters.  Laroche was 35 and really didn't want to play anymore; Dunn declined for some reason; and Frazier never was a great hitter to begin with - he popped homers out of the Cincy bandbox and people thought that would translate seamlessly to the Cell.  Plus the Sox don't really bring out the best in the low BA, high walk, high K profile hitters:  they seem to walk less, K more as the BA craters once they hit the southside.

Harper is a completely different class of hitter.

 The Sox have bad luck with NL players.  The NL and AL are apples and oranges.   I guess they thought the system was stocked with outfielders so they passed on Harper.

[caulfield12]

24 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

 The Sox have bad luck with NL players.  The NL and AL are apples and oranges.   I guess they thought the system was stocked with outfielders so they passed on Harper.

And yet their biggest "finds" from the last decade plus have been the likes of Eaton, DeAza and Quentin, all coming from National League backgrounds.

[TaylorStSox]

Carlos Quentin - 1st round draft pick out of Stanford/Team USA/top 50 prospect - according to Caulfield, he was a "find." Oh, Caulfield... 

Edited August 19, 2019 by TaylorStSox

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Carlos Quentin - 1st round draft pick out of Stanford/Team USA/top 50 prospect - according to Caulfield, he was a "find." Oh, Caulfield... 

Then why was he available for just Chris Carter?

If it’s so easy to find future MVP candidates, why have the White Sox had such a difficult time either filling corner outfield spots or 1B/DH?  Those SHOULD be easy, right?

Eaton, fwiw, was also highly regarded as a prospect but couldn’t stay on the field.

So it you’re not going to consider either of those two as “finds” from other organizations...you have to go back to Alexei Ramirez and Quintana on the pitching side and that’s basically it...because everyone already knew about Abreu.

DeAza would be third...but I suppose Taylor St. was claiming him from the Marlins the day he was put on the waiver wire.

[bighurt574]

I'd still take Machado over Harper and would have at least matched SD's offer.  

[poppysox]

On 8/17/2019 at 1:11 PM, Jose Abreu said:

Yes, Machado is on pace for a ~3.5 fWAR season which is actually roughly consistent with the value of his contract. Having him at 3B with Moncada at 2B would allow us to trade Madrigal for a controllable SP. 

We can have Cole for a third of what Machado got and have Madrigal for the next 10 years.  

[Moan4Yoan]

4 minutes ago, poppysox said:

We can have Cole for a third of what Machado got and have Madrigal for the next 10 years.  

If this happens, I will praise the move.  Problem is, I don’t see us getting Cole either.  He’s a pitcher and I don’t think the Sox want to take on that kind of long-term injury  risk.

[poppysox]

2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

If this happens, I will praise the move.  Problem is, I don’t see us getting Cole either.  He’s a pitcher and I don’t think the Sox want to take on that kind of long-term injury  risk.

I understand this is the thinking but the FO can see the needs just as clearly as we can I would hope.  I refuse to believe that anyone thinks a couple of Nova's fills the need in the rotation.  

[kitekrazy]

18 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

And yet their biggest "finds" from the last decade plus have been the likes of Eaton, DeAza and Quentin, all coming from National League backgrounds.

 I'm not sure they are big finds but if you get them young enough but still bad luck with veteran NL talent.   It started with Jake Peavy.

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, bighurt574 said:

I'd still take Machado over Harper and would have at least matched SD's offer.  

 I still don't think they were interested in Harper.  You have a Jimenez and a Robert in your system and ever since Crede they could never fill 3b.  It's like a curse.  Then they thought they could turn out their own instead of drafting one.   Josh Field couldn't catch a baseball.  They tried it with Viciedo.  Then there was Teahan who I think eventually went to the outfield and there was that broken down player from Boston. 

[greg775]

47 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

 I still don't think they were interested in Harper. 

That was pretty apparent. Good post by kite.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

We can have Cole for a third of what Machado got and have Madrigal for the next 10 years.  

Cole is getting $200M+, so much more than a third of what Machado is getting.

[Buehrle>Wood]

1 hour ago, kitekrazy said:

 I still don't think they were interested in Harper.  

They were. It was even reported recently they went back to the table with Harper after Machado signed with SD.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

They were. It was even reported recently they went back to the table with Harper after Machado signed with SD.

But the perception was that they invested 80-85% of their time into the Machado pursuit and were "leading the field" with offers at least twice and asking for a commitment.   There were at least two days/nights during the hunt that the Machado to Sox story was the headline at ESPN, for example.

Did we ever have a better offer on the table to Harper than he signed with the Phillies?

[Moan4Yoan]

1 hour ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

They were. It was even reported recently they went back to the table with Harper after Machado signed with SD.

That must have been a short conversation.

[hogan873]

I think Harper would have been the better fit for several reasons.  However, I don't think the Sox ever stood a chance to sign him, and I'm not sure it was all about money.  I believe Harper wanted to go to a higher profile team.

[poppysox]

12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Cole is getting $200M+, so much more than a third of what Machado is getting.

What...40 million for 5 years...20 million for 10 years...don't think so.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

What...40 million for 5 years...20 million for 10 years...don't think so.

I think he gets close to 7/$200M if Patrick Corbin got 6/$140M with his red flags.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I would guess he lands the biggest pitching contract ever which puts him around 7 years 220 million. I would be incredibly hesitant to give Gerrit Cole 7 years and 220 million. Pitching is aging better and he's been durable so I'd consider it, but I would not go north of 7/220 even a single penny.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I would guess he lands the biggest pitching contract ever which puts him around 7 years 220 million. I would be incredibly hesitant to give Gerrit Cole 7 years and 220 million. Pitching is aging better and he's been durable so I'd consider it, but I would not go north of 7/220 even a single penny.

Yup, with the Yankees and the Dodgers both having money to spend, he'll pass Price's mark. I'm not sure how much he'll pass it by, but if you are serious about signing Gerrit Cole the numbers you just wrote are the starting bid.

[bmags]

So Strasburg has 4/90 coming up. Say he opts out, what are you offering him for his age 31/32 years? 5/150?

[TomPickle]

The issue here isn't just whether or not Machado is worth $300 million (I believe he is), but what is wasting Giolito's and Moncada's breakthrough seasons worth? What is giving a plausible reason to keep Luis Robert down in the minors for the entirety of this season worth? What is shrinking the window for when your core will be in the majors at the same time together worth?

All of these things can be mitigated by spending this off season, but I sure don't have faith in this front office/ownership right now. And for another matter, what is not pissing off your fanbase worth? I know attendance is up, but I haven't gone to a game this year and I don't plan to either. I don't go to a ton of games, but usually at least 5 per year. If the Sox signed one of Machado or Harper I would have gone to at least that many this season.

Edited August 20, 2019 by TomPickle

[Balta1701]

21 minutes ago, TomPickle said:

The issue here isn't just whether or not Machado is worth $300 million (I believe he is), but what is wasting Giolito's and Moncada's breakthrough seasons worth? What is giving a plausible reason to keep Luis Robert down in the minors for the entirety of this season worth? What is shrinking the window for when your core will be in the majors at the same time together worth?

All of these things can be mitigated by spending this off season, but I sure don't have faith in this front office/ownership right now. And for another matter, what is not pissing off your fanbase worth? I know attendance is up, but I haven't gone to a game this year and I don't plan to either. I don't go to a ton of games, but usually at least 5 per year. If the Sox signed one of Machado or Harper I would have gone to at least that many this season.

This team was not going to have enough to compete this year even if they signed Machado and Harper. We knew that last offseason. We didn't know how this season would go, we didn't know Rodon would be the one who got hurt, we didn't how how much Eloy and Lopez would struggle, we didn't know Anderson and Giolito and McCann would break out, but there was zero chance of putting a competitive roster out there. There were just too many holes. 

When we tried to put together competitive rosters at a $150 million price tag last offseason on here, on my list of things we needed to do was "Replace Giolito" because coming into this season there was no honest way you could count on him as even a #5 starter on a competitive team. 

Next offseason is different. Kopech, Madrigal, Robert, and hopefully Collins and Vaughn are coming. Cease is another year along the line. Hopefully Eloy is a breakout candidate. Maybe Lopez is pointing in the right direction. There are still holes, there are still decisions to make, it is still entirely possible that our GM will do what he usually does and we'll wind up with 75 wins on the year, but we should be in far better position on paper to make a turn in the right direction.

[Thad Bosley]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Yup, with the Yankees and the Dodgers both having money to spend, he'll pass Price's mark. I'm not sure how much he'll pass it by, but if you are serious about signing Gerrit Cole the numbers you just wrote are the starting bid.

The White Sox have money to spend, too, and lots of it.  And they may be in an even more enviable position given they don't have any luxury tax implications to be concerned with.  

[mqr]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I would guess he lands the biggest pitching contract ever which puts him around 7 years 220 million. I would be incredibly hesitant to give Gerrit Cole 7 years and 220 million. Pitching is aging better and he's been durable so I'd consider it, but I would not go north of 7/220 even a single penny.

I have to imagine that would more than get it done.