greg775 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 hours ago, EloyJenkins said: Adam Eaton...would actually be a great fit. Cost would be too high I'm sure. For some reason I read that as Adam Engel and wondered why u would want him. Then I read closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, SoxAce said: I'm still trying to see the numbers where this amazing range Tim has this year. Even his range runs above average is in the negative (same with his defensive runs saved). Javy Baez for example is in the positive there (along with his defensive runs saved). Tim was much better last season by every metric. This year, his problems are definitely more on the routine plays. His range stats were really good prior to this season though, so I guess I'm assuming that they'll revert to the norm next year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, Jose Abreu said: I guess I feel the same way about the whole defense this year. I don't think Jimenez is unplayable in LF, I don't think Anderson is a horrible defensive SS, I don't think Engel is that great in CF, and I think Moncada is elite defensively at 3B. Apparently all 4 of those are unpopular opinions. I don't think anybody here disagrees too much about Moncada at 3B. And if they do, then I don't know what more do they want out of the guy who just switched there this season. Even the eye test can tell you he's been damn good over there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, SoxAce said: I don't think anybody here disagrees too much about Moncada at 3B. And if they do, then I don't know what more do they want out of the guy who just switched there this season. Even the eye test can tell you he's been damn good over there. Yep definitely better than expected. Eloy is worse IMO due to his noodle arm. The more I watch other teams, the more I realize how bad McCann and Castillo are at framing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: My argument is that errors as a statistic are meaningless, mostly because they are completely subjective. Tim was one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball in 2018. Interesting take, Jose. I never thought of that. Ozzie made a lot of errors too as I recall and he was dandy overall. Leave Timmy alone. I'd write an essay for you guys on where I would suggest moving Timmy, but I think that's what finally got me suspended last time. Nobody let me defend my position on him in a court of message board law; they thought I was trolling. Leave Timmy at short. He's a star who loses interest IMO during meaningless routs. Let's see a chart of when his errors were committed in games and the score at the time. Edited September 3, 2019 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, SoxAce said: I don't think anybody here disagrees too much about Moncada at 3B. And if they do, then I don't know what more do they want out of the guy who just switched there this season. Even the eye test can tell you he's been damn good over there. He's among leaders in errors so I figured that would be a turn off for people. Fangraphs has him as the #3 3B defensively though, obviously behind Chapman and Arenado. I tend to think that's accurate, maybe Machado at #3 instead, but Moncada is in that tier. Edited September 3, 2019 by Jose Abreu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: He's among leaders in errors so I figured that would be a turn off for people. Fangraphs has him as the #3 3B defensively though, obviously behind Chapman and Arenado. I tend to think that's accurate, maybe Machado at #3 instead, but Moncada is in that tier. Errors matter more depending on who's making them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Sorry the notion that Tim Anderson has range that most SS do not is false. Even at his best, he's one of the better rangy SS, certainly not top 5. Unfortunately this year he's taken a step back in that department also, along with the errors he's piling up. The notion that he's getting dinged for errors because he's getting to balls others couldn't is not a good enough excuse. Is using errors as the primary metrics to evaluate a defender outdated? Yes, agreed. Are they completely meaningless? No, they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 14 minutes ago, SoxAce said: I don't think anybody here disagrees too much about Moncada at 3B. And if they do, then I don't know what more do they want out of the guy who just switched there this season. Even the eye test can tell you he's been damn good over there. We probably all agree especially since he only has played there one season. But this goes back to my posting yesterday on TA as a SS. Like TA, Yoan is rated as one of the worst 3B in Dwar. I think only Kris Bryant is worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 But back to the original topic, I wouldn't mind trying to buy low on guys like Nimmo, Haniger, Piscotty, Polanco, in that order. I think as long as the price is not crazy (non-top 5 prospects, plus Collins) I'll bite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Sorry the notion that Tim Anderson has range that most SS do not is false. Even at his best, he's one of the better rangy SS, certainly not top 5. Unfortunately this year he's taken a step back in that department also, along with the errors he's piling up. The notion that he's getting dinged for errors because he's getting to balls others couldn't is not a good enough excuse. Is using errors as the primary metrics to evaluate a defender outdated? Yes, agreed. Are they completely meaningless? No, they are not. Anderson is tied for 2nd in MLB range factor this season. If throwing is a player's weakness, a guy with great range will get more chances but also more throwing errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, SCCWS said: Anderson is tied for 2nd in MLB range factor this season. If throwing is a player's weakness, a guy with great range will get more chances but also more throwing errors. Sure, but watching him play every game, the majority of his errors have been on routine plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, fathom said: Sure, but watching him play every game, the majority of his errors have been on routine plays. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: But back to the original topic, I wouldn't mind trying to buy low on guys like Nimmo, Haniger, Piscotty, Polanco, in that order. I think as long as the price is not crazy (non-top 5 prospects, plus Collins) I'll bite. I would rather spend the money on a stop-gap 1 year solution like Alex Gordon than trade something from the mid-levels of our system. Those guys have been banged up and inconsistent but I'd be surprised if there are 0 ballplayers in that 6-15 range, and getting 1 of them to turn into a tolerable ballplayer or a better trade asset in the future is far more valuable to me than a little more upside in 2020. Especially when our payroll is so low right now. Throw Gordon or Calhoun out there (if non-tendered or available for something outside the top 30), let them play for a year, and then re-evaluate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 19 minutes ago, SCCWS said: Like TA, Yoan is rated as one of the worst 3B in Dwar. I think only Kris Bryant is worse. Which site says that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, SCCWS said: Anderson is tied for 2nd in MLB range factor this season. If throwing is a player's weakness, a guy with great range will get more chances but also more throwing errors. Range factor isn’t really best way to evaluate how often the player is getting to balls other players could not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 23 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Sorry the notion that Tim Anderson has range that most SS do not is false. Even at his best, he's one of the better rangy SS, certainly not top 5. Unfortunately this year he's taken a step back in that department also, along with the errors he's piling up. The notion that he's getting dinged for errors because he's getting to balls others couldn't is not a good enough excuse. Is using errors as the primary metrics to evaluate a defender outdated? Yes, agreed. Are they completely meaningless? No, they are not. To clarify, I agree that his main problem this year is routine plays. My comment about players getting dinged for errors as a result of their range was a general statement about my thoughts on the stat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I would rather spend the money on a stop-gap 1 year solution like Alex Gordon than trade something from the mid-levels of our system. Those guys have been banged up and inconsistent but I'd be surprised if there are 0 ballplayers in that 6-15 range, and getting 1 of them to turn into a tolerable ballplayer or a better trade asset in the future is far more valuable to me than a little more upside in 2020. Throw Gordon or Calhoun out there (if non-tendered or available for something outside the top 30), let them play for a year, and then re-evaluate. 1B is the position we could use a stop gap with Vaughn being the 1B of the future. I just don’t see we have any RF that are can’t miss guys long term. LuGon, Blake, Adolfo and Walker don’t scream cant miss guys to me. The idea of going the trade market is we could save of the FA money in other positions, e.g. pitching. If we have enough money to spend and get a quality RF (which I don’t think Gordon is), then I wouldn’t mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said: To clarify, I agree that his main problem this year is routine plays. My comment about players getting dinged for errors as a result of their range was a general statement about my thoughts on the stat This is literally why it's useful to go to the advanced defensive stats, because "lots of mistakes on easy plays" and "makes some high range, low chance plays" will both feed into the balance. So when both DRS and UZR are saying "He's average to slightly below average and substantially worse than in 2018" you're getting a more complete picture than either stat can provide. He's average to slightly below average because either: his range is making up for some of the errors, or because his errors are counterbalancing his range, however you want to look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 13 minutes ago, fathom said: Sure, but watching him play every game, the majority of his errors have been on routine plays. How. many of his errant throws would be forgotten if we had a competent 1B though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, thxfrthmmrs said: 1B is the position we could use a stop gap with Vaughn being the 1B of the future. I just don’t see we have any RF that are can’t miss guys long term. LuGon, Blake, Adolfo and Walker don’t scream cant miss guys to me. The idea of going the trade market is we could save of the FA money in other positions, e.g. pitching. If we have enough money to spend and get a quality RF (which I don’t think Gordon is), then I wouldn’t mind. You don't need any of them to be "can't miss" right now, you need 1 of them to be an average player. Out of those 4 guys, maybe we've got a 50% shot of covering RF for us, and if we cover RF with an average player who is cheap for 3-4 years, that's a big win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, Balta1701 said: You don't need any of them to be "can't miss" right now, you need 1 of them to be an average player. Out of those 4 guys, maybe we've got a 50% shot of covering RF for us, and if we cover RF with an average player who is cheap for 3-4 years, that's a big win. I’m the opposite, I want a big gun outside of the organization to provide some power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said: How. many of his errant throws would be forgotten if we had a competent 1B though? He hasn’t been as horrible in that aspect as he has actual range on balls hit to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: This is literally why it's useful to go to the advanced defensive stats, because "lots of mistakes on easy plays" and "makes some high range, low chance plays" will both feed into the balance. So when both DRS and UZR are saying "He's average to slightly below average and substantially worse than in 2018" you're getting a more complete picture than either stat can provide. He's average to slightly below average because either: his range is making up for some of the errors, or because his errors are counterbalancing his range, however you want to look at it. Yes, and he is worse than 2018, but what I'm arguing is that his 2018 defense is more indicative of how his next few years at SS will be than his 2019 defense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: Yes, and he is worse than 2018, but what I'm arguing is that his 2018 defense is more indicative of how his next few years at SS will be than his 2019 defense Why is that? Given what we’ve seen, couldn’t that have just been the anomaly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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