TA and Yoan have combined for 8.5 fWAR: is this the best young double play combo in Sox history?

[chitownsportsfan]

51 minutes ago, Juschill said:

Exactly.  Since we’re moving people to positions they haven’t played all year (thus leading to their success) let’s consider Frank Thomas a shortstop and Robin Ventura a second baseman.

It's a fun little experiment to see how our young IF stacks up to historically great young Sox infields.   For argument's sake I included Moncada as both a 3B and 2B.  If you want to stretch that to Frank Thomas as SS be my guest but the easiest defensive position is a far cry from 3B, SS, 2B and historically has been much easier for the Sox to cover with a star.

[Jerksticks]

Carlos Lee & Mags probably putnup some silly numbers as a double play duo

[ron883]

Rick Hahn deserves a lifetime contract for getting those two superstars. Add in Eloy and Collins. Goodness

[ChiSox1917]

6 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Also, a 3B and SS aren't considered a DP combination.

this...i was so confused by the op

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

yea they're good and all but what did Machado and Tatis Jr put up in WAR this year, eh?????

[The Sir]

This thread caused me to look up Luis Aparicio's career stats, which in turn led me to believe that if only Yolmer had been born before World War II, he'd be a borderline HOF candidate.

Flame away.

[chitownsportsfan]

16 minutes ago, The Sir said:

This thread caused me to look up Luis Aparicio's career stats, which in turn led me to believe that if only Yolmer had been born before World War II, he'd be a borderline HOF candidate.

Flame away.

It was def a different time.  I thought the same thing looking at his b-ref page.  I mean by WAA he was a solid regular but certainly not a star let alone superstar.  And my dad growing up wouldn't shutup about guys like Aparcio and how legendary they were.  He had a career OPS+ of 86 but somehow put up over 41 oWAR -- musta been a helluva fucking baserunner.

I mean he won ROY with an OPS+ of 72!  An engel like slash line of 266/311/341.

But that was an era when middle infielders just didn't hit at all.  Guess that changed in the 90s for various reasons.

[Heads22]

I just looked up Nellie Fox's numbers.....this isn't meant to be a smartass, but isn't this what we expect out of Madrigal?

 

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, Heads22 said:

I just looked up Nellie Fox's numbers.....this isn't meant to be a smarts, but isn't this what we expect out of Madrigal?

 

</div>

I'm expecting HTML? :-)

Edited September 19, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[Heads22]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I'm expecting HTML? 🙂

with lots of br

[Heads22]

 

Year	Age	Tm	Lg	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	Awards
1947	19	PHA	AL	7	3	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	.000	.250	.000	.250	‑27
1948	20	PHA	AL	3	13	0	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	.154	.214	.154	.368	‑2
1949	21	PHA	AL	88	247	42	63	6	2	0	21	2	2	32	9	.255	.354	.296	.650	75
1950	22	CHW	AL	130	457	45	113	12	7	0	30	4	3	35	17	.247	.304	.304	.608	58
1951	23	CHW	AL	147	604	93	189	32	12	4	55	9	12	43	11	.313	.372	.425	.798	117	AS,MVP‑17
1952	24	CHW	AL	152	648	76	192	25	10	0	39	5	5	34	14	.296	.334	.366	.700	94	AS,MVP‑7
1953	25	CHW	AL	154	624	92	178	31	8	3	72	4	5	49	18	.285	.344	.375	.719	92	AS
1954	26	CHW	AL	155	631	111	201	24	8	2	47	16	9	51	12	.319	.372	.391	.763	107	AS,MVP‑9
1955	27	CHW	AL	154	636	100	198	28	7	6	59	7	9	38	15	.311	.364	.406	.770	106	AS,MVP‑7
1956	28	CHW	AL	154	649	109	192	20	10	4	52	8	4	44	14	.296	.347	.376	.723	91	AS,MVP‑14
1957	29	CHW	AL	155	619	110	196	27	8	6	61	5	6	75	13	.317	.403	.415	.818	124	AS,MVP‑4,GG
1958	30	CHW	AL	155	623	82	187	21	6	0	49	5	6	47	11	.300	.357	.353	.710	98	AS,MVP‑8
1959	31	CHW	AL	156	624	84	191	34	6	2	70	5	6	71	13	.306	.380	.389	.770	113	AS,AS,MVP‑1,GG
1960	32	CHW	AL	150	605	85	175	24	10	2	59	2	4	50	13	.289	.351	.372	.723	96	AS,AS,MVP‑18,GG
1961	33	CHW	AL	159	606	67	152	11	5	2	51	2	3	59	12	.251	.323	.295	.618	69	AS,AS
1962	34	CHW	AL	157	621	79	166	27	7	2	54	1	2	38	12	.267	.314	.343	.657	77
1963	35	CHW	AL	137	539	54	140	19	0	2	42	0	2	24	17	.260	.299	.306	.605	72	AS,MVP‑26
1964	36	HOU	NL	133	442	45	117	12	6	0	28	0	2	27	13	.265	.320	.319	.639	86
1965	37	HOU	NL	21	41	3	11	2	0	0	1	0	0	0	2	.268	.286	.317	.603	76

[Heads22]

Anyways, back to normal talky-words

 

Looking over Fox's career numbers, between the average and hits, lack of K's, no real power (walk numbers aside) are we not asking Madrigal to be Nellie Fox?

[The Sir]

10 minutes ago, Heads22 said:

I just looked up Nellie Fox's numbers.....this isn't meant to be a smarts, but isn't this what we expect out of Madrigal?

 

 

I don't want to be too nonchalant about it ("just hit like this HOFer and everything will be alright"), but I think it's a decent comparison. He'll steal more bags and maybe K a bit more (I think he could consistently K less than 30 times a season), but I envision around a .300 BA with a low to mid .700 OPS. Power won't be much so it's gonna center around his ability to get on base at the top of the lineup.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

4 minutes ago, Heads22 said:

 

Year	Age	Tm	Lg	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	Awards
1947	19	PHA	AL	7	3	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	.000	.250	.000	.250	‑27
1948	20	PHA	AL	3	13	0	2	0	0	0	0	1	0	1	0	.154	.214	.154	.368	‑2
1949	21	PHA	AL	88	247	42	63	6	2	0	21	2	2	32	9	.255	.354	.296	.650	75
1950	22	CHW	AL	130	457	45	113	12	7	0	30	4	3	35	17	.247	.304	.304	.608	58
1951	23	CHW	AL	147	604	93	189	32	12	4	55	9	12	43	11	.313	.372	.425	.798	117	AS,MVP‑17
1952	24	CHW	AL	152	648	76	192	25	10	0	39	5	5	34	14	.296	.334	.366	.700	94	AS,MVP‑7
1953	25	CHW	AL	154	624	92	178	31	8	3	72	4	5	49	18	.285	.344	.375	.719	92	AS
1954	26	CHW	AL	155	631	111	201	24	8	2	47	16	9	51	12	.319	.372	.391	.763	107	AS,MVP‑9
1955	27	CHW	AL	154	636	100	198	28	7	6	59	7	9	38	15	.311	.364	.406	.770	106	AS,MVP‑7
1956	28	CHW	AL	154	649	109	192	20	10	4	52	8	4	44	14	.296	.347	.376	.723	91	AS,MVP‑14
1957	29	CHW	AL	155	619	110	196	27	8	6	61	5	6	75	13	.317	.403	.415	.818	124	AS,MVP‑4,GG
1958	30	CHW	AL	155	623	82	187	21	6	0	49	5	6	47	11	.300	.357	.353	.710	98	AS,MVP‑8
1959	31	CHW	AL	156	624	84	191	34	6	2	70	5	6	71	13	.306	.380	.389	.770	113	AS,AS,MVP‑1,GG
1960	32	CHW	AL	150	605	85	175	24	10	2	59	2	4	50	13	.289	.351	.372	.723	96	AS,AS,MVP‑18,GG
1961	33	CHW	AL	159	606	67	152	11	5	2	51	2	3	59	12	.251	.323	.295	.618	69	AS,AS
1962	34	CHW	AL	157	621	79	166	27	7	2	54	1	2	38	12	.267	.314	.343	.657	77
1963	35	CHW	AL	137	539	54	140	19	0	2	42	0	2	24	17	.260	.299	.306	.605	72	AS,MVP‑26
1964	36	HOU	NL	133	442	45	117	12	6	0	28	0	2	27	13	.265	.320	.319	.639	86
1965	37	HOU	NL	21	41	3	11	2	0	0	1	0	0	0	2	.268	.286	.317	.603	76

All I see is blonde, brunette, red head....

[caulfield12]

Valentin and Durham was a pretty dynamic ACTUAL 2B/SS combination.

[chitownsportsfan]

29 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Valentin and Durham was a pretty dynamic ACTUAL 2B/SS combination.

Probably the closest timeframe duo but I  I looked it up and Valentin was on the way out just as Ray was ascending.  Think Jose was 30 and already in decline when Ray was 24 and becoming a great player.

So just to clear this up, does anybody really think that if Moncada was moved to 2B tmr he wouldn't immediately make the best young "double play combo" in the last 30 years on the SS at 24, 26 , coming off these monster years?  Overall ability, not just defense, because both these guys rake and can run the bases, steals or otherwise.

[Balta1701]

26 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Probably the closest timeframe duo but I  I looked it up and Valentin was on the way out just as Ray was ascending.  Think Jose was 30 and already in decline when Ray was 24 and becoming a great player.

So just to clear this up, does anybody really think that if Moncada was moved to 2B tmr he wouldn't immediately make the best young "double play combo" in the last 30 years on the SS at 24, 26 , coming off these monster years?  Overall ability, not just defense, because both these guys rake and can run the bases, steals or otherwise.

Well just think about how much you've narrowed it down. 1 franchise, 30 years. How many times during any 30 year period does even a really good franchise bring up 2 infielders within a few years? 

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Well just think about how much you've narrowed it down. 1 franchise, 30 years. How many times during any 30 year period does even a really good franchise bring up 2 infielders within a few years? 

why I made the thread my man.  these guys are elite and rare.  dan z had a very positive piece on the sox published tonight on FG.  Someone should make a thread.

i've been negative and management remains a problem but from a "guys you need to be good" perspective this season has delivered.  cut the dead wood and maybe we got a garden.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

It was def a different time.  I thought the same thing looking at his b-ref page.  I mean by WAA he was a solid regular but certainly not a star let alone superstar.  And my dad growing up wouldn't shutup about guys like Aparcio and how legendary they were.  He had a career OPS+ of 86 but somehow put up over 41 oWAR -- musta been a helluva fucking baserunner.

I mean he won ROY with an OPS+ of 72!  An engel like slash line of 266/311/341.

But that was an era when middle infielders just didn't hit at all.  Guess that changed in the 90s for various reasons.

He didn't steal bases just to pad the numbers.  He stole when it mattered.  I've heard baseball people say he could have stolen 100 bases per year if he wanted to.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, poppysox said:

He didn't steal bases just to pad the numbers.  He stole when it mattered.  I've heard baseball people say he could have stolen 100 bases per year if he wanted to.

such a different time, wish we had more easily found footage.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Probably the closest timeframe duo but I  I looked it up and Valentin was on the way out just as Ray was ascending.  Think Jose was 30 and already in decline when Ray was 24 and becoming a great player.

So just to clear this up, does anybody really think that if Moncada was moved to 2B tmr he wouldn't immediately make the best young "double play combo" in the last 30 years on the SS at 24, 26 , coming off these monster years?  Overall ability, not just defense, because both these guys rake and can run the bases, steals or otherwise.

If the Sox somehow get Rendon  would be a nice problem to have about who plays 2nd base, Rendon or Yo. This might be a career year for all 3 . Hopefully not, but next year would be fun around the infield. I'm not really sure about Rendon having a career year because he's had a few really splendid years.

[greg775]

The title of the thread needs to be changed to make a reasonable comment. Yoan's ship has sailed at 2B. He's 3B.

[Balta1701]

14 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If the Sox somehow get Rendon  would be a nice problem to have about who plays 2nd base, Rendon or Yo. This might be a career year for all 3 . Hopefully not, but next year would be fun around the infield. I'm not really sure about Rendon having a career year because he's had a few really splendid years.

Madrigal.

[BackDoorBreach]

I don't see Rendon fitting in any way.  You put Yo in RF?  I don't see that happening lol.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Madrigal.

If you rather have Madrigal at 2nd base than Rendon then I don't know what to tell you. I like Madrigal as well as the next guy and the payroll flexibility he provides but I m looking at sustained success being a long shot and just hoping for 1 year where the Sox can win a World Series so I will take as many superstars as we can get on my imaginary World Series team. I really don't see how anyone could think we will have sustained success, How long will we wait on Cease, Kopech, Dunning , Robert Madrigal Vaughn to actually become major contributors ? Even if most can become major contributors in their 2nd year like Giolito and Moncada and probably Eloy that's no longer 2020 but 2021, IF every one of them can improve as much as Gio and Moncada . Since we haven't even seen one full year from any of them yet it's very unlikely it will happen by 2021 also.

For a guy who professes to dislike many things about the Front Office you are putting an awful lot of faith in them attaining the goals about sustained success and actually advocating their process and depending on them to achieve that goal all in this off season and the next one while praying for a miracle that every prospect i mentioned becomes good by 2021 .

Edited September 19, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside