TA and Yoan have combined for 8.5 fWAR: is this the best young double play combo in Sox history?

[chitownsportsfan]

For argument's sake we'll consider Yoan a 2B for now that was converted to 3B.  It just might be.  There are some really good Sox historians here is there any comparison?  It doesn't look like Nellie Fox ever had a reliable 2B partner and frankly looking at his stats Fox peaked early and was largely disappointing after that.

By the time Jose Valentin showed up Durham was already 28 and Jose was 30 himself.  Alexei's best 2B was...Gordon Beckham?

Fill me in guys.  Any duos in history that can compare?  Feel free to include 3B as well.  Crede never played with any young SS, only Valentin.

Edited September 18, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[Buehrle>Wood]

Fox was a second baseman. He spent all but one of his sox seasons playing next to Hall of Famers Luke Appling and Luis Aparicio. So yeah.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Buehrle>Wood

[bubba phillips]

Fox and Aparicio were definitely the best combo in my lifetime.

Edited September 18, 2019 by bubba phillips

[Buehrle>Wood]

5 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Fox was a second baseman. He spent all but one of his sox seasons playing next to Hall of Famers Luke Appling and Luis Aparicio. So yeah.

Oh wait, Chico Carrasquel too. He was 4x all star at ss for the sox

[chitownsportsfan]

10 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

Fox was a second baseman. He spent all but one of his sox seasons playing next to Hall of Famers Luke Appling and Luis Aparicio. So yeah.

thanks this is the kind of stuff I was looking for.  Can you provide and example of two guys putting up over 8 WAR tho?  I'm looking through those seasons in the 30s and frankly it looks like Aparicio was an average player that played a really long time and became a "compiler".

Edited September 18, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[RTC]

Fox and Carrasqeul
1954 - 10.4 combined
1955 - 8.6

Fox and Aparicio
1957 - 11.0
1959 - 9.3

So, no.

EDIT: FYI, those are bWAR.  Using fWAR, here's some data points
1954 - 10.0
1955 - 7.9
1957 - 9.8
1959 - 8.8
1960 - 9.0

Edited September 18, 2019 by RTC

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

thanks this is the kind of stuff I was looking for.  Can you provide and example of two guys putting up over 8 WAR tho?  I'm looking through those seasons in the 30s and frankly it looks like Aparicio was an average player that played a really long time and became a "compiler".

1954,1955,1957,1959,1960

Edited September 18, 2019 by Dick Allen

[pcq]

Luis was a top glove but not overly strong bat. He put the go in Go-Go-Sox .

[Dick Allen]

Also, a 3B and SS aren't considered a DP combination.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Also, a 3B and SS aren't considered a DP combination.

Oh wait, so since a 3b is included do we get to include Ventura? he alone dropped 5.3 rWAR as a 23 year old, Ozzie Guillen and Ventura combined for 7.4 rWAR that year. Does a 3b to a 1b count as a double play combination since 3b and SS is this one? Because I've got a good 3b and 1b combination from those years.

[oldsox]

5 minutes ago, pcq said:

Luis was a top glove but not overly strong bat. He put the go in Go-Go-Sox .

Actually, the Go-Go White Sox started in 1951.  Aparicio showed up in 1956.  He was an instant sensation, although just a .250 hitter initially.  He kept getting better and better, and he and Fox both had great years in 1959.  Soon thereafter, Veeck traded him to Baltimore.  Talk about dumb.  Aparicio retired early with well over 2000 hits.

No one in Sox history was or will be dumber than Bill Veeck.  Hahn will never catch him, although the Tatis trade was Veeck-esque.

[Bob Sacamano]

24 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh wait, so since a 3b is included do we get to include Ventura? he alone dropped 5.3 rWAR as a 23 year old, Ozzie Guillen and Ventura combined for 7.4 rWAR that year. Does a 3b to a 1b count as a double play combination since 3b and SS is this one? Because I've got a good 3b and 1b combination from those years.

I was going to say, since Moncada isn't moving back to 2B (most likely), this should read "left-side of the infield."

[chitownsportsfan]

Personally you can include 1B if you'd like but I'm mostly interested in the harder defensive spectrum positions and that's SS, 2B, 3B which traditionally make up 3 of the hardest 5 positions outside catcher and CF whereas 1B is usually considered the easiest position.

I originally wanted it to be "double play combo" but expanded it to 3B when my brain realized we can't really consider Yoan a 2B anymore, but he did play a full season there next to Tim.

thanks to @Dick Allen and @RTC

Edited September 18, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[daggins]

"Best since the 50's/60's" is still a good place to be, and also quite damning of the organization.

[chitownsportsfan]

14 minutes ago, daggins said:

"Best since the 50's/60's" is still a good place to be, and also quite damning of the organization.

hard to believe that for most of us under 70  Yoan and Timmie is as good as it gets.  Ventura and Ray Durham maybe?  Looks like their careers barely overlapped and Robin was fading as Ray was coming on. In 1998 a 30 year old RV and a 26 year old Durham put up combined 10.2 bWAR!  Wow.

Edited September 18, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[thxfrthmmrs]

If double play combo in the sense when Adam Dunn is coming up to bat, then they’re a pretty good double play combo.

[Dick Allen]

Moncada is putting up an fWAR that the Boy Wonder put up with regularity. Hopefully it will become common for him as well. I think TA will come back to the pack a bit offensively moving forward, but do think he will figure out using good fundamentals, even if it's boring, is the way to go with routine plays, and save the flare for the spectacular, which will probably more than offset his drop in offense. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Moncada is putting up an fWAR that the Boy Wonder put up with regularity. Hopefully it will become common for him as well. I think TA will come back to the pack a bit offensively moving forward, but do think he will figure out using good fundamentals, even if it's boring, is the way to go with routine plays, and save the flare for the spectacular, which will probably more than offset his drop in offense. 

Yeah, I think Tim is a 3-5 WAR player with a good amount of variance going forward. His defense in a good year can rank top 5-7 in baseball at SS, and at that point an average bat is a 5 WAR guy. 

Because of his profile his outputs will be more volatile but he should maintain an above-average to all star level for some time before his bat speed slows down.

Tim does really seem to have a knack for the dramatic though - so I'd love to see how he performs in the playoffs.

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Moncada is putting up an fWAR that the Boy Wonder put up with regularity. Hopefully it will become common for him as well. I think TA will come back to the pack a bit offensively moving forward, but do think he will figure out using good fundamentals, even if it's boring, is the way to go with routine plays, and save the flare for the spectacular, which will probably more than offset his drop in offense. 

I was hoping that this year, especially based on his 2nd half of last year, but he's flat out gone in the wrong direction fundamentally. His 2019 was worse than his 2018 on defensive fundamentals. 

[bschmaranz]

Are Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso the worst double play combo in white sox history?

[chitownsportsfan]

9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Moncada is putting up an fWAR that the Boy Wonder put up with regularity. Hopefully it will become common for him as well. I think TA will come back to the pack a bit offensively moving forward, but do think he will figure out using good fundamentals, even if it's boring, is the way to go with routine plays, and save the flare for the spectacular, which will probably more than offset his drop in offense. 

RV was a really good player until that horrific foot injury.  If Moncada can replicate that here and stay healthy into his late 20s I'd be thrilled.

[chitownsportsfan]

11 minutes ago, bschmaranz said:

Are Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso the worst double play combo in white sox history?

Slowest potato sack duo.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, pcq said:

Luis was a top glove but not overly strong bat. He put the go in Go-Go-Sox .

Like Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel, I think defensive abilities are getting lost in the shuffle when evaluating elite infielders of the past lacking all the modern metrics to assess their unique impacts on the game.

Aparicio was a great player in his own right.

[FloydBannister1983]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh wait, so since a 3b is included do we get to include Ventura? he alone dropped 5.3 rWAR as a 23 year old, Ozzie Guillen and Ventura combined for 7.4 rWAR that year. Does a 3b to a 1b count as a double play combination since 3b and SS is this one? Because I've got a good 3b and 1b combination from those years.

Exactly.  Since we’re moving people to positions they haven’t played all year (thus leading to their success) let’s consider Frank Thomas a shortstop and Robin Ventura a second baseman.

[Soxfest]

Fox and Aparicio