A Realistic Offseason

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

12 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

The Astros lineup is flat out loaded at every other position, as are the Nationals. Closing our eyes and crossing our fingers that McCann continues to overachieve is wishful thinking. He's a solid backup, but we can and should be all over Grandal. 

Now you're back tracking. You said mccann isnt a playoff caliber catcher and we pointed to world series teams with lesser players at catcher.

The white sox should spend their money in positions that they dont currently hold surplus value at - they have surplus value at catcher.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

My offseason wish list:

-Resign Jose Abreu (this is a given)

-Sign JDM

-Sign Madison Bumgarner

-Sign Rich Hill

-Trade for Cole Kalhoun (or sign if he hits FA)

Tall task but I’d be thrilled with an offseason like that.

[BackDoorBreach]

Grandal is a luxury.

[mqr]

Just now, BackDoorBreach said:

Grandal is a luxury.

McCann probably should be replaced, but Catcher is well down my list of needs. 

[steveno89]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Now you're back tracking. You said mccann isnt a playoff caliber catcher and we pointed to world series teams with lesser players at catcher.

The white sox should spend their money in positions that they dont currently hold surplus value at - they have surplus value at catcher.

They only have surplus value if McCann repeats his 2019 numbers, which my argument is that he will not. With no other viable catching option in the system, Grandal makes too much sense to pass up on a multi year deal. If McCann flops what is the plan?

McCann has not yet proven starting caliber ability to me. Outside of first half 2019, what has he really done?

 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, steveno89 said:

They only have surplus value if McCann repeats his 2019 numbers, which my argument is that he will not. With no other viable catching option in the system, Grandal makes too much sense to pass up on a multi year deal. If McCann flops what is the plan?

McCann has not yet proven starting caliber ability to me. Outside of first half 2019, what has he really done?

 

 

Is Collins still on the team?

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Is Collins still on the team?

He is not a viable everyday catcher, and the Sox aren't going to use him as a backup either.  Hence, we need three catchers.  

[ChiSox59]

7 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Grandal is a luxury.

In the sense that all FAs are a luxury.  Grandal is far and away the best free agent position player fit for the White Sox.  People need to stop looking at Grandal as if he's replacing McCann.  Grandal will DH and play 1B in addition to catching, allowing Collins to be more than strictly a b/u catcher, and also allowing McCann to not get overexposed.  

Grandal is the perfect fit, and likely won't even require $20M AAV.    

Edited October 23, 2019 by ChiSox59

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I’m still trying to figure out how/why McCann gets credit for how he handled the pitching staff so well...is it all because Giolito took a couple steps forward (to where he was always supposed to be)? Because I don’t see a single other player on the staff that made any kind of improvements or developments to give the catcher credit either way, good or bad

He was 8th in baseball in rCERA, meaning despite having a bad pitching staff, they outperformed their season end numbers when he caught in relation to Castillo.

rCERA is likely the best publically available metric for evaluating a receivers impact on his team.

Grandal ranked 47th of 49 qualified catchers in rCERA. He is simply a poor receiver and game caller.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

He is not a viable everyday catcher, and the Sox aren't going to use him as a backup either.  Hence, we need three catchers.  

Why?

[ChiSox59]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Why?

Because he isn't very good at catching, and they'll want to play him at 1B and DH as well.  Tough to regularly use your only backup catcher elsewhere in the field.  Even if the Sox miss out on Grandal, I am pretty much certain they'll be carrying 2 catchers in addition to Collins.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

They only have surplus value if McCann repeats his 2019 numbers, which my argument is that he will not. With no other viable catching option in the system, Grandal makes too much sense to pass up on a multi year deal. If McCann flops what is the plan?

McCann has not yet proven starting caliber ability to me. Outside of first half 2019, what has he really done?

 

 

If he is a 1.5 WAR player he has nearly 8 million in surplus value. He was a 3.8 bWAR player this year. If we take the averages of WAR, he was a 3.1 WAR player.

McCann could be half as good as last year and have significant surplus value. If he repeats last year he has almost 15-20 million in surplus value.

I don't think you understand what a starting catchers average WAR is in MLB baseball.

[he gone.]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The anti-McCann nonsense is brutal on this board.

He's not a star but he's an average MLB catcher - that's fine. His defense is + and his bat was fine. 

If you removed the 3 best months of any players year and focused solely on his 2 worst months, almost every player will look worse. That's the nature of baseball. He had a 700 OPS in the 2nd half while hitting 226. Catchers in general are going to regress more than other players as the season goes on due to the immense amount of wear and tear. I dont think people understand how valuable a catcher can be to a pitcher - McCann seems to have that impact. Theres a reason career 200 hitters remain in the league for a decade as "personal catchers."

Worry about the actual holes on the team - not a guy who is average at his position who has an obviously positive impact on the arms he catches. Quantifying a catchers value is really difficult.

It's not the 3 best month of any given year... its the 3 best months of his whole CAREER. He's never come close to putting up that production before. As quickly as it emerged it went away. McCann is not a part of this teams WS future. if the sox keep him, so be it. He'll bat .230, catch for giolito in 2020 and be gone next year or released mid-year. To me that's a waste of a spot. The only reason to keep him is for Giolito, but if Giolito is ever truly going to be an ace or #2 for the long term he's going to have to find another catcher. You cant roster McCann solely for Giolito. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

It's not the 3 best month of any given year... its the 3 best months of his whole CAREER. He's never come close to putting up that production before. As quickly as it emerged it went away. McCann is not a part of this teams WS future. if the sox keep him, so be it. He'll bat .230, catch for giolito in 2020 and be gone next year or released mid-year. To me that's a waste of a spot. The only reason to keep him is for Giolito, but if Giolito is ever truly going to be an ace or #2 for the long term he's going to have to find another catcher. You cant roster McCann solely for Giolito. 

1. I judge players based on their actual year end performance, not their worst two months. 

2. In the second half of 2017, mccann had a 760 OPS - while hitting 291 with a 345 obp. He has certainly succeeded before. 

You cant roster McCann solely for giolito yet plenty of HOF pitchers who won world series had personal catchers for a decade. Weird that you say the Sox can't do exactly what the cubs did when they won the world series and rostered Ross for Lester.

Again, the anti-McCann sentiment is comical. He's not a problem. He's a fine baseball player who had a positive impact on his staff. 

Would love to have had you tell Lester, or Kershaw (who has gotten worse since Ellis' departure) and on that they dont need their catcher.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[bmags]

Martin Maldanado and his 76 wRC+ is on the astros. The staff loves him. It's not worth losing him.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Martin Maldanado and his 76 wRC+ is on the astros. The staff loves him. It's not worth losing him.

Yes, because being a great receiver who does his homework is so much more valuable than people understand. 

rCERA is really the only stat we have to judge and McCann is really good there while grandal is as bad as it gets last year.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Grandal basically solves C/DH/1B assuming Abreu is retained.  Between Abreu, Grandal, McCann and Collins, those three positions are covered. 

FA is really solvable via FA unless its a 1 year stop gap.  So not a ton of capital needs to be deployed there. Pretty obvious they'll try to find a trade partner there.  

I would agree that SP should be 1A, but Grandal should be 1B.  

GRANDAL DOES NOT SOLVE DH 

[ChiSox59]

McCann was the 9th best catcher in all of baseball last year per fWAR.  Not exactly sure who people think we're going to upgrade with besides Grandal, and even if you sign Grandal, you still need another catcher.

The whole discussion is silly.  McCann is going nowhere for 2020.  

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, cjgalloway said:

GRANDAL DOES NOT SOLVE DH 

Assuming Abreu is resigned, he most certainly does.  

[he gone.]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

1. I judge players based on their actual year end performance, not their worst two months. 

2. In the second half of 2017, mccann had a 760 OPS - while hitting 291 with a 345 obp. He has certainly succeeded before. 

You cant roster McCann solely for giolito yet plenty of HOF pitchers who won world series had personal catchers for a decade. Weird that you say the Sox can't do exactly what the cubs did when they won the world series and rostered Ross for Lester.

Again, the anti-McCann sentiment is comical. He's not a problem. He's a fine baseball player who had a positive impact on his staff. 

Would love to have had you tell Lester, or Kershaw (who has gotten worse since Ellis' departure) and on that they dont need their catcher.

Hey ... uh ... do you realize that your points 1 & 2 completely conflict with each other?

And I'm not sure where I said "they cant". Sure they can. I won't even pick at the rest of the argument since it's not an argument I even made. 

These two scenarios can exist:

McCann is a fine/average player. He is not the problem.

Sox trade/sign/replace McCann with Mercedes and nobody bats an eye. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Assuming Abreu is resigned, he most certainly does.  

loll.. so who DHs the 100 games when he is catching? McCann?  Collins?  The whole, "lets carry 3 catchers so they can alternate at DH" is a complete and utter joke when 2 of those can't hit.. 

[he gone.]

Just now, cjgalloway said:

loll.. so who DHs the 100 games when he is catching? McCann?  Collins?  The whole, "lets carry 3 catchers so they can alternate at DH" is a complete and utter joke when 2 of those can't hit.. 

Grandal 100 games catching, 40 games DH

Abreu 120 games 1B, 30 games DH

Collins 60 games catching, 40 games DH

Gennett 50 games DH, 50 games 2B, 15 games 3B, 15 games OF

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

McCann was the 9th best catcher in all of baseball last year per fWAR.  Not exactly sure who people think we're going to upgrade with besides Grandal, and even if you sign Grandal, you still need another catcher.

The whole discussion is silly.  McCann is going nowhere for 2020.  

He was 4th ranked in bWAR too. Given the volatility of defensive metrics, you're best off taking positional players WAR averages between b and f.

[Sarava]

I'm in agreement that the Sox need to be focusing more on RF, DH, a TOR starter and maybe a bullpen arm or two - all before even thinking of replacing McCann. It's just not at the top of the list of needs. And it's certainly the easiest of the 8 positions to accept lesser hitting, if you are getting good defense and he is calling good games.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, BrianAnderson said:

Hey ... uh ... do you realize that your points 1 & 2 completely conflict with each other?

And I'm not sure where I said "they cant". Sure they can. I won't even pick at the rest of the argument since it's not an argument I even made. 

These two scenarios can exist:

McCann is a fine/average player. He is not the problem.

Sox trade/sign/replace McCann with Mercedes and nobody bats an eye. 

No, they don't. You said he had never had a stretch similar - I merely pointed out that was incorrect. 

I am not the one judging McCann based on his poor two months - you are.

Why would they replace mccan with a guy who can't catch? I'd bat an eye at the sox giving up a league average catcher who only costs 5 million dollars. Yes, I would.