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A Realistic Offseason

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Tim Anderson has the ability to make some plays at SS that I'm sure even Omar Vizquel is impressed with but he also makes a lot of errors.  What if this doesn't improve?  He did lead the league in errors in 2019 and only played in 123 games. At what point would a change in position be considered?  I know the White Sox front office thought about moving TA to CF last year to give Manny Machado his choice of 3B or SS.  Instead of trying to find a RF in a down year for free agents at that position what if the Sox moved TA to CF or RF and signed someone like Didi Gregorius to play SS?  That seems like it could be a better option defensively and maybe also offensively than signing a player like Ozuna to me.  

Edited by Good Guys
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3 hours ago, Good Guys said:

Tim Anderson has the ability to make some plays at SS that I'm sure even Omar Vizquel is impressed with but he also makes a lot of errors.  What if this doesn't improve?  He did lead the league in errors in 2019 and only played in 123 games. At what point would a change in position be considered?  I know the White Sox front office thought about moving TA to CF last year to give Manny Machado his choice of 3B or SS.  Instead of trying to find a RF in a down year for free agents at that position what if the Sox moved TA to CF or RF and signed someone like Didi Gregorius to play SS?  That seems like it could be a better option defensively and maybe also offensively than signing a player like Ozuna to me.  

That would have worked out perfectly had Bogaerts stayed on the market.

Gregorious...due to his age, well, you're moving a kid in the prime of his career for a veteran, but the other reason to do this would be to move Robert to RF and prevent some of the wear and tear he'd be taking playing CF.

Haven't seen how Gregorious rates defensively...this year, he's missed most of the year.  What were his ratings/rankings in 2017 and 2018.

 

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4 hours ago, Good Guys said:

Tim Anderson has the ability to make some plays at SS that I'm sure even Omar Vizquel is impressed with but he also makes a lot of errors.  What if this doesn't improve?  He did lead the league in errors in 2019 and only played in 123 games. At what point would a change in position be considered?  I know the White Sox front office thought about moving TA to CF last year to give Manny Machado his choice of 3B or SS.  Instead of trying to find a RF in a down year for free agents at that position what if the Sox moved TA to CF or RF and signed someone like Didi Gregorius to play SS?  That seems like it could be a better option defensively and maybe also offensively than signing a player like Ozuna to me.  

This is exactly what I was thinking

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On 10/20/2019 at 12:25 AM, BackDoorBreach said:

They have a payroll of 50 million after arbitration.  They aren't going to be playing with a 90 million dollar payroll like they did last year in a non competitive year.  

There are not any left handed power bats available in FA.  I think they are going to swing a trade for that in RF.  I am hoping Pederson since he will be relatively cheap with 1 year left before FA.  JDM is 2x better than any LH bat on the market.  What versatile player is out there that is going to give you 30+ HR, OPS 900+, and give you a 37%+ OBP?  Especially for a DH. He is a special hitter with a deal that would be finished in 3 or 4 years.  

They need at least 1 LH hitting starter this off season, but outside of Grandal who is out there?  We need a DH and RF positionally.

The rest of the money should be spent on pitching, but  nobody here thinks Cole is an option, thats only going to be around 30/year if they get a Wheeler and 5 man.  Where is all the money leftover going to? 

Some of the math heads have figured it's $65M with arb., pre arb., and Abreu . Grandal and Moustakas are both LH power bats. Together they can give you 60 HR's play catcher, DH, 1st, 2nd and 3rd base and together they might cost the same as JDM's AAV which might be around $35M . That just sounds better to be covering 5 different positions in a pinch, more HR's, same salary and left handed. Plus you don't lose any defense like you do having to play JDM in the OF in the World Series or interleague games in NL parks. Those games could matter when it comes to winning a division or just making the playoffs.

They are also both younger than JDM and out WARed JDM last year and both might take less years in their contracts

As far as where the money goes , you were already off by $15M on the starting point and if there is anything left over you don't have to waste assets trading for a 1 year rental like Pederson and hoping to resign him . I think that's a terrible plan and more speculative than signing Grandal and Moustakas. Just wait a year , what's wrong with waiting ? If you wait a year you save a bunch of years on the guys it takes to trade for him. If there is money left over than you can sign him as a FA or Springer or even Betts in 2021.

 

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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5 hours ago, Good Guys said:

Tim Anderson has the ability to make some plays at SS that I'm sure even Omar Vizquel is impressed with but he also makes a lot of errors.  What if this doesn't improve?  He did lead the league in errors in 2019 and only played in 123 games. At what point would a change in position be considered?  I know the White Sox front office thought about moving TA to CF last year to give Manny Machado his choice of 3B or SS.  Instead of trying to find a RF in a down year for free agents at that position what if the Sox moved TA to CF or RF and signed someone like Didi Gregorius to play SS?  That seems like it could be a better option defensively and maybe also offensively than signing a player like Ozuna to me.  

I agree with this. I actually suggested this maybe a month ago. Didn't seem like many others liked the idea at the time. I suspect Tim would be very good in right field. A lot of his problems at shortstop seem to be his throwing. He like to fling the ball off balanced to first. On rush plays I get it, but he also does it sometimes when he has plenty of time to plant and throw, but he chooses not to.

The great thing is, if they decided to go that route, they could have him start to work on it in the off-season and then would have the full spring training as well.

I think a move like this would bring a tremendous team defensive improvement. TIm would probably play a good RF/CF, and you'd likely get far better defense at shortstop as well.

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1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Some of the math heads have figured it's $65M with arb., pre arb., and Abreu . Grandal and Moustakas are both LH power bats. Together they can give you 60 HR's play catcher, DH, 1st, 2nd and 3rd base and together they might cost the same as JDM's AAV which might be around $35M . That just sounds better to be covering 5 different positions in a pinch, more HR's, same salary and left handed. Plus you don't lose any defense like you do having to play JDM in the OF in the World Series or interleague games in NL parks. Those games could matter when it comes to winning a division or just making the playoffs.

They are also both younger than JDM and out WARed JDM last year and both might take less years in their contracts

As far as where the money goes , you were already off by $15M on the starting point and if there is anything left over you don't have to waste assets trading for a 1 year rental like Pederson and hoping to resign him . I think that's a terrible plan and more speculative than signing Grandal and Moustakas. Just wait a year , what's wrong with waiting ? If you wait a year you save a bunch of years on the guys it takes to trade for him. If there is money left over than you can sign him as a FA or Springer or even Betts in 2021.

 

Moustakas would get how many at-bats at third, 2B, 1B, DH and RF in this scenario?

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7 hours ago, Good Guys said:

Tim Anderson has the ability to make some plays at SS that I'm sure even Omar Vizquel is impressed with but he also makes a lot of errors.  What if this doesn't improve?  He did lead the league in errors in 2019 and only played in 123 games. At what point would a change in position be considered?  I know the White Sox front office thought about moving TA to CF last year to give Manny Machado his choice of 3B or SS.  Instead of trying to find a RF in a down year for free agents at that position what if the Sox moved TA to CF or RF and signed someone like Didi Gregorius to play SS?  That seems like it could be a better option defensively and maybe also offensively than signing a player like Ozuna to me.  

I'm for trying to sign Gregorius. Hurt most of 2019 but avg. > 20HRs and 80RBIs over each of 3 prior years while anchoring Yankee defense. He hits from left side and Yankees used him throughout their lineup, from LO to #9. He would be an upgrade at SS but if TAs feelings would be hurt, Didi can DH and likely play 2nd as needed. My guess is he could quickly pick up 1B as well. To me, he seems like an excellent addition, as I have voiced before. Guessing 2 yrs. at $14/per w/option for year 3.

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2 hours ago, Sarava said:

I agree with this. I actually suggested this maybe a month ago. Didn't seem like many others liked the idea at the time. I suspect Tim would be very good in right field. A lot of his problems at shortstop seem to be his throwing. He like to fling the ball off balanced to first. On rush plays I get it, but he also does it sometimes when he has plenty of time to plant and throw, but he chooses not to.

The great thing is, if they decided to go that route, they could have him start to work on it in the off-season and then would have the full spring training as well.

I think a move like this would bring a tremendous team defensive improvement. TIm would probably play a good RF/CF, and you'd likely get far better defense at shortstop as well.

I think it is a good idea but they also could get burned. What if he wants to be a SS?  Also there is the gamble he struggles in RF or is unhappy and you end up with more issues.  I think as fans we all say players can be moved to a new position but not all like to or are able to. 

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I think if you absolutely cannot deal with Tim Anderson at SS, then you trade him. I think moving him to the outfield severely hampers his development. 

 

I also believe that he will become a perennial all star if you trade him. Remember when he said something about how he wasn’t really developed when he was in the minors? Imagine him going to a team with a strong coaching system. He has a lot of talent get to be unlocked. 

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Maybe they can put all their players up in prospective trades to see which ones the Astros actually like...then find better coaching for those guys.

Edited by caulfield12
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3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Some of the math heads have figured it's $65M with arb., pre arb., and Abreu . Grandal and Moustakas are both LH power bats. Together they can give you 60 HR's play catcher, DH, 1st, 2nd and 3rd base and together they might cost the same as JDM's AAV which might be around $35M . That just sounds better to be covering 5 different positions in a pinch, more HR's, same salary and left handed. Plus you don't lose any defense like you do having to play JDM in the OF in the World Series or interleague games in NL parks. Those games could matter when it comes to winning a division or just making the playoffs.

They are also both younger than JDM and out WARed JDM last year and both might take less years in their contracts

As far as where the money goes , you were already off by $15M on the starting point and if there is anything left over you don't have to waste assets trading for a 1 year rental like Pederson and hoping to resign him . I think that's a terrible plan and more speculative than signing Grandal and Moustakas. Just wait a year , what's wrong with waiting ? If you wait a year you save a bunch of years on the guys it takes to trade for him. If there is money left over than you can sign him as a FA or Springer or even Betts in 2021.

 

I wasn't off by 15 million.  I didn't include Abreu who is a FA.  50 million + 15 million is 65 million which is what you believe our payroll would be after he signs.  I think we are at 49 and change after arb iirc.

The problem with your scenario is Moustakas and to a lesser extent Grandal aren't going to get those ABs since all those IF positions are covered.  You can get Grandal and rotate him and Collins between 1B/DH and C depending on where McCann is at in the lineup.  Moustakas only makes sense if you plan to just use him as a primary DH and a sub a handful of games a year...since all the positions he plays are covered.  Since Moose would have to be a DH he would not provide you 3+ WAR like JDM would since he is not anywhere near the hitter JDM is. Your scenario about JDM hurting in interleague games is also moot since Moustakas would literally not be playing unless Yo, Madrigal, Abreu, Grandal had the day off.

Wait a year for what? To sign Betts to a 300+ million contract or Springer to a 150+ million dollar contract?  They can't waste another year with this core as they head into arbitration. Pederson would be relatively cheap trade wise and if you can make the right deal you do it.  If you don't think the Sox have a shot at Cole I really hope you aren't counting on Betts to be an option since he will cost ~100 million dollars more.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Moustakas would get how many at-bats at third, 2B, 1B, DH and RF in this scenario?

With Abreu now mostly at DH he would get plenty at 1st, or when Abreu played 1st he can DH, He could also open the season at 2nd before Madrigal comes up but I'd prefer someone like Holt or Leury if Sanchez is non tendered. Plays 3rd to give Moncada rest. Basically the primary 1st baseman/DH and backup 2nd and 3rd baseman. Easily as many AB's as he got with the Brewers around 500.

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2 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I wasn't off by 15 million.  I didn't include Abreu who is a FA.  50 million + 15 million is 65 million which is what you believe our payroll would be after he signs.  I think we are at 49 and change after arb iirc.

The problem with your scenario is Moustakas and to a lesser extent Grandal aren't going to get those ABs since all those IF positions are covered.  You can get Grandal and rotate him and Collins between 1B/DH and C depending on where McCann is at in the lineup.  Moustakas only makes sense if you plan to just use him as a primary DH and a sub a handful of games a year...since all the positions he plays are covered.  Since Moose would have to be a DH he would not provide you 3+ WAR like JDM would since he is not anywhere near the hitter JDM is. Your scenario about JDM hurting in interleague games is also moot since Moustakas would literally not be playing unless Yo, Madrigal, Abreu, Grandal had the day off.

Wait a year for what? To sign Betts to a 300+ million contract or Springer to a 150+ million dollar contract?  They can't waste another year with this core as they head into arbitration. Pederson would be relatively cheap trade wise and if you can make the right deal you do it.  If you don't think the Sox have a shot at Cole I really hope you aren't counting on Betts to be an option since he will cost ~100 million dollars more.  

 

 

No, I'm expecting Abreu to DH mostly. If the Sox can't see having Abreu mostly DHing thats not my problem. Moose would take over at 1st and hopefully Abreu gets less than 50 games there. You go on and on about Moose not being in the lineup but here's the reality.  see below. The problem with your plan is expecting to make the playoffs next year with a Kopech, Cease and Lopez never having had success in MLB yet. You don't deal for one year rentals expecting to sign them . You just don't. You didn't have a rebuild to throw those years away on a rental. If you want to trade for Nimmo a guy with 3 years , that's not so bad.We had the rebuild to make smart trades. We have a ton of OF's in the system . I don't care what you think of them , they need to have an opportunity to rise , one more year. Just as all the starting pitchers need 1 more year. I wasn't counting on Betts or Springer . I said wait , Pederson is included in that wait. Also Moose (876 OPS 2019 ) and Grandal  (.926 OPS 2019) hit lefties way better than Pederson  (.505 OPS 2019 ) does. Dodgers really wouldn't even bat Pederson against lefties.

JDM/Pederson vs Moose /Grandal isn't the difference between the Sox making the playoff or not . It's just a better, deeper more well rounded team my way.  I expect ELoy to put up JDM type numbers this year or very close.The pitching will be the difference in if the Sox make the playoffs. They fill more positions and have better backups my way. They don't trade assets,they have my guys for more than just a year.

1st Moustakas/Abreu

2nd Madrigal/ Moustakas

3rd Moncada/ Moustkas

SS Anderson

DH Abreu/ Moustakas

C Grandal/McCann

LF Jimenez

CF Robert

RF  Whoever

 

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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36 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

No, I'm expecting Abreu to DH mostly. If the Sox can't see having Abreu mostly DHing thats not my problem. Moose would take over at 1st and hopefully Abreu gets less than 50 games there. You go on and on about Moose not being in the lineup but here's the reality.  see below. The problem with your plan is expecting to make the playoffs next year with a Kopech, Cease and Lopez never having had success in MLB yet. You don't deal for one rentals expecting to sign them . You just don't. You didn't have a rebuild to throw those years away on a rental. If you want to trade for Nimmo a guy with 3 years , that's not so bad.We had the rebuild to make smart trades. We have a ton of OF's in the system . I don't care what you think of them , they need to have an opportunity to rise , one more year. Just as all the starting pitchers need 1 more year. I wasn't counting on Betts or Springer . I said wait , Pederson is included in that wait. Also Moose (876 OPS 2019 ) and Grandal  (.926 OPS 2019) hit lefties way better than Pederson  (.505 OPS 2019 ) does. Dodgers really wouldn't even bat Pederson against lefties.

JDM/Pederson vs Moose /Grandal isn't the difference between the Sox making the playoff or not . It's just a better, deeper more well rounded team my way.  I expect ELoy to put up JDM type numbers this year or very close.The pitching will be the difference in if the Sox make the playoffs. They fill more positions and have better backups my way. They don't trade assets,they have my guys for more than just a year.

1st Moustakas/Abreu

2nd Madrigal/ Moustakas

3rd Moncada/ Moustkas

SS Anderson

DH Abreu/ Moustakas

C Grandal/McCann

LF Jimenez

CF Robert

RF  Whoever

 

Then we should never have drafted Vaughn...of course, the obvious problem was the college pitching wasn’t there like previous drafts...but it’s not like Rodon and Fulmer have amounted to all that much.

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15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Then we should never have drafted Vaughn...of course, the obvious problem was the college pitching wasn’t there like previous drafts...but it’s not like Rodon and Fulmer have amounted to all that much.

This is a terrible post.

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1 minute ago, bmags said:

This is a terrible post.

In a long line of terrible Caulfield posts.  

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56 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Then we should never have drafted Vaughn...of course, the obvious problem was the college pitching wasn’t there like previous drafts...but it’s not like Rodon and Fulmer have amounted to all that much.

Last time I saw Vaughn he was playing A+ ball, I'll worry about Vaughn when he is killing  AAA.

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48 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

In a long line of terrible Caulfield posts.  

Have you ever said anything memorable since you’ve been here..besides chiming in incessantly from the dugout?

 

You don’t spend Top Five picks on someone you’re not planning the rebuild’s future around...but we’ll see if they can get Grandal for exactly two years and Moustakas for exactly two years and maybe, just maybe...it will all come together, assuming they have enough money left on the pitching side.   In this scenario, they likely go cheap in RF.

But not only is Vaughn pushed back off the fast track...but Collins is likely jettisoned into oblivion.

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5 hours ago, SCCWS said:

I think it is a good idea but they also could get burned. What if he wants to be a SS?  Also there is the gamble he struggles in RF or is unhappy and you end up with more issues.  I think as fans we all say players can be moved to a new position but not all like to or are able to. 

I agree that Tim would have to be on board with this. You don't want to create a negative situation.

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6 hours ago, Flash said:

I'm for trying to sign Gregorius. Hurt most of 2019 but avg. > 20HRs and 80RBIs over each of 3 prior years while anchoring Yankee defense. He hits from left side and Yankees used him throughout their lineup, from LO to #9. He would be an upgrade at SS but if TAs feelings would be hurt, Didi can DH and likely play 2nd as needed. My guess is he could quickly pick up 1B as well. To me, he seems like an excellent addition, as I have voiced before. Guessing 2 yrs. at $14/per w/option for year 3.

I have read speculation that the Yankees will give Gregorius a qualifying offer...in that case I do not see the Sox giving up a draft pick to sign Didi

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2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Have you ever said anything memorable since you’ve been here..besides chiming in incessantly from the dugout?

 

You don’t spend Top Five picks on someone you’re not planning the rebuild’s future around...but we’ll see if they can get Grandal for exactly two years and Moustakas for exactly two years and maybe, just maybe...it will all come together, assuming they have enough money left on the pitching side.   In this scenario, they likely go cheap in RF.

But not only is Vaughn pushed back off the fast track...but Collins is likely jettisoned into oblivion.

You don't have to get Grandal and Moustakas for 2 years each. There's Abreu too ya know. He's the oldest. No one lasts forever there are players who will falter and that includes Vaughn. You do what you can to build the team without Vaughn . If Vaughn becomes a stud then that's a good problem you have. If Collins is left out so be it. There are always trades to be made if somehow the Sox end up with too much talent. You really do over think things sometimes. There's no reason to try to fit  Vaughn into someones timeline . Collins can be a valuable piece but we need valuable pieces now to least get into a position for the playoffs if the young starting pitching can come through they way Giolito did. If that doesn't happen  there's no amount of money the Sox can throw at free agents that will fix things. But in the mean time you need solid position players with solid backups in case Moncada really is as soft as everyone thinks,not a DH who really can't play the field or a lefty who can't hit lefties and they both play the same position when on the field. We have Abreu to DH and a future DH in Eloy . Why spend money on another one ? I even saw one article online that suggested Vaughn was a future DH.

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2 hours ago, wegner said:

I have read speculation that the Yankees will give Gregorius a qualifying offer...in that case I do not see the Sox giving up a draft pick to sign Didi

Doubtful Gregorius gets a QO. If he does, hard no. 

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6 minutes ago, Flash said:

Doubtful Gregorius gets a QO. If he does, hard no. 

I don't know his medical state or how confident the Yanks are in him right now, but it would kinda make sense. Had he not gotten hurt he would absolutely have gotten one, and the Yankees have benefited this year from the infield depth. That's one way to see if they want to sign him long term, they have the money if they want to spend it, and their IF is stronger with him available and Torres at 2b. If the Yankees are confident he's back to normal...I'd strongly consider it in their shoes.

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51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't know his medical state or how confident the Yanks are in him right now, but it would kinda make sense. Had he not gotten hurt he would absolutely have gotten one, and the Yankees have benefited this year from the infield depth. That's one way to see if they want to sign him long term, they have the money if they want to spend it, and their IF is stronger with him available and Torres at 2b. If the Yankees are confident he's back to normal...I'd strongly consider it in their shoes.

Yankees have some high class roster problems and a host of talented guys who have missed considerable time for one reason or other. Guys to keep an eye on are Frazier, Bird and Andujar. I really love the idea of Tauschman (Chgo. kid) but doubt he can be pried away. 

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27 minutes ago, Flash said:

Yankees have some high class roster problems and a host of talented guys who have missed considerable time for one reason or other. Guys to keep an eye on are Frazier, Bird and Andujar. I really love the idea of Tauschman (Chgo. kid) but doubt he can be pried away. 

I do have to figure they'll move a couple of those guys this year, but Bird and Andujar no longer make any sense for us unless we're going to move Andujar to the OF. If they move 1-2 of those guys for a solid starter and bring back Gregorius, and then land Cole or Stras, they suddenly have made their roster substantially better. 

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