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Rendon thread

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On 10/1/2019 at 12:02 PM, ChiSox59 said:

Yoan isn't moving.  But Rendon could play 2B.  Trade Madrigal for RF or pitching.  I wouldn't do it, but its a possible solution.  

Rendon isn't signing somewhere to play 2B.

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4 hours ago, ptatc said:

Rendon isn't signing somewhere to play 2B.

I bet he would if it paid him the most money. But ya, Rendon is a 3B and the comment I made was mostly in jest as I literally said in the post he’s not signing with the Sox. 

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25 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I bet he would if it paid him the most money. But ya, Rendon is a 3B and the comment I made was mostly in jest as I literally said in the post he’s not signing with the Sox. 

Not unless is was overwhelming. 

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I honestly don't see Hahn signing Rendon. For him to do that, he would have to either put Moncada in the outfield (moving again would not be beneficial to his development) or putting him to DH and I just can't see him doing either, especially not for Rendon's cost and the other areas of need in the team. I'd be surprised to see Rendon in Sox uniform in 2020.

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11 hours ago, ptatc said:

Rendon isn't signing somewhere to play 2B.

Good!  Now lets go get the parts we really need.  

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On 10/2/2019 at 7:26 AM, poppysox said:

We have obvious holes to plug at DH, RF and Starters.  Don't waste time and money where we have exceptional talent already.

Sign Rendon to DH, then. His bat is certainly worth it, as he's been a 3-5 WAR bat for several years.

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19 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Sign Rendon to DH, then. His bat is certainly worth it, as he's been a 3-5 WAR bat for several years.

The Nationals just put $210 million on the table for him and it's a fair offer. Are you up for a 7 year, $210 million contract for a DH?

I'm not a fan of signing Martinez, but given the choice between that offer and Martinez, JD Martinez is an easy choice.

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2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The Nationals just put $210 million on the table for him and it's a fair offer. Are you up for a 7 year, $210 million contract for a DH?

I'm not a fan of signing Martinez, but given the choice between that offer and Martinez, JD Martinez is an easy choice.

I mean, if it were me, I'd move Moncada again, sign Rendon, sign Grandal, sign Strasburg, and sign another quality pitcher, say Keuchel. It's not ideal, but the talent at RF on the market isn't going to help the Sox be competitive, certainly not nearly as much as moving Moncada to RF and signing the two best position players on the market. This lineup and rotation could compete in 2020:

Lineup:

01) 2B Nick Madrigal

02) RF Yoan Moncada

03) 3B Anthony Rendon

04) 1B Jose Abreu

05) LF Eloy Jimenez

06) CF Luis Robert

07) C Yasmani Grandal

08) SS Tim Anderson

09) DH Zack Collins (or pick someone else for this spot)

Bench: Leury Garcia, Brian McCann, Danny Mendick

Rotation:

01) Stephen Strasburg

02) Lucas Giolito

03) Dallas Keuchel

04) Reynaldo Lopez

05) Dylan Cease

With Kopech and Rodon eventually available to replace any ineffective pieces.

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22 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

I mean, if it were me, I'd move Moncada again, sign Rendon, sign Grandal, sign Strasburg, and sign another quality pitcher, say Keuchel. It's not ideal, but the talent at RF on the market isn't going to help the Sox be competitive, certainly not nearly as much as moving Moncada to RF and signing the two best position players on the market. This lineup and rotation could compete in 2020:

Lineup:

01) 2B Nick Madrigal

02) RF Yoan Moncada

03) 3B Anthony Rendon

04) 1B Jose Abreu

05) LF Eloy Jimenez

06) CF Luis Robert

07) C Yasmani Grandal

08) SS Tim Anderson

09) DH Zack Collins (or pick someone else for this spot)

Bench: Leury Garcia, Brian McCann, Danny Mendick

Rotation:

01) Stephen Strasburg

02) Lucas Giolito

03) Dallas Keuchel

04) Reynaldo Lopez

05) Dylan Cease

With Kopech and Rodon eventually available to replace any ineffective pieces.

Well first of all you said you'd sign Rendon for DH and then turned around and said why you wouldn't, but anyway there's a bigger flaw in this one. For quick round numbers, $20 million for Abreu (Qualifying offer), $30 million for Stras, $30 million for Rendon, $20 million for Grandal, $10 million for your "another quality pitcher", $15 million to cover Anderson,  Jiminez, and Herrera (under contract), another $20 million in arbitration to keep Rodon, Leury, and Colome, and another $10 million in salaries to fill out the roster, and you're nearly at $160 million counting McCann.

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9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all you said you'd sign Rendon for DH and then turned around and said why you wouldn't, but anyway there's a bigger flaw in this one. For quick round numbers, $20 million for Abreu (Qualifying offer), $30 million for Stras, $30 million for Rendon, $20 million for Grandal, $10 million for your "another quality pitcher", $15 million to cover Anderson,  Jiminez, and Herrera (under contract), another $20 million in arbitration to keep Rodon, Leury, and Colome, and another $10 million in salaries to fill out the roster, and you're nearly at $160 million counting McCann.

If you're going to be stubborn and insist that the team rigidly stick to filling perceived "holes", then Rendon is still one of the top bats available, and therefore viable as a DH. It makes much more sense to move the young versatile athletic budding superstar to a position of need where a quality solution isn't available on the free agent market and get a player that makes the team better than to try to fit square pegs into round holes, at least to me. Those four players would be a massive upgrade to the roster and make the postseason a very real possibility. The White Sox keep saying the money will be spent, that would be a way to spend it that would open a contention window.

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9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all you said you'd sign Rendon for DH and then turned around and said why you wouldn't, but anyway there's a bigger flaw in this one. For quick round numbers, $20 million for Abreu (Qualifying offer), $30 million for Stras, $30 million for Rendon, $20 million for Grandal, $10 million for your "another quality pitcher", $15 million to cover Anderson,  Jiminez, and Herrera (under contract), another $20 million in arbitration to keep Rodon, Leury, and Colome, and another $10 million in salaries to fill out the roster, and you're nearly at $160 million counting McCann.

Why is a $160 million payroll so outlandish?  That amount would place us around 11th place overall.  I would expect that or more after 3+ years on a starvation diet.

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2 hours ago, poppysox said:

Why is a $160 million payroll so outlandish?  That amount would place us around 11th place overall.  I would expect that or more after 3+ years on a starvation diet.

Well first of all it's $30 million more than this franchise has ever done, so I do doubt we're going that high. But, I've been surprised before, so I'm not going to say we won't. We could get to that, but if that's our limit - hitting our limit next year is a huge mistake

If we did all those contracts next year and win the Central, which is possible, then maybe playoff revenue supports slight payroll growth in 2021. But let's say that adding those guys takes this 70 win team up to 88 wins, and we miss the Wild Card by 5 or 6 wins since the top of the league is so good.

What contracts end after 2021? Let's assume the $10 million pitcher contract ends, Colome's contract ends, Herrera's contract ends, Leury's contract ends. That's $32 million-ish that comes off the books. But, in 2021...Moncada, Giolito, and Lopez all hit arbitration for the first time. If they continue performing at all, that's more than $20 million in new money to pay those guys. Plus, salaries for Anderson, Rodon, Eloy all go up. Assume the team keeps Mr. Lifetime Contract Abreu in 2021 for similar money. In that case, the White Sox's payroll commitments into the 2021 offseason are >$150 million. And that's with no bench and no closer. So, how does your team get any better in 2021 than they were in 2020? You have less than $10 million to spend, and little in the way of new prospects arriving. If your team wins 88 games next year, you lose your closer and bench and rotation depth so  your roster is worse on paper, you have little to no youth coming up...how do you get better? You better have someone break out, because now your expensive guys are now a year older. 

And in 2022, it gets worse, because each of those salaries keeps going up. So, if you go to $160 million this year, and that's your payroll limit without new revenue growth, you better win the Central with ease and soon. If you don't, then in 2022, you're set up to start the next rebuild, because you've got to clear some payroll. 

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36 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all it's $30 million more than this franchise has ever done, so I do doubt we're going that high. But, I've been surprised before, so I'm not going to say we won't. We could get to that, but if that's our limit - hitting our limit next year is a huge mistake

If we did all those contracts next year and win the Central, which is possible, then maybe playoff revenue supports slight payroll growth in 2021. But let's say that adding those guys takes this 70 win team up to 88 wins, and we miss the Wild Card by 5 or 6 wins since the top of the league is so good.

What contracts end after 2021? Let's assume the $10 million pitcher contract ends, Colome's contract ends, Herrera's contract ends, Leury's contract ends. That's $32 million-ish that comes off the books. But, in 2021...Moncada, Giolito, and Lopez all hit arbitration for the first time. If they continue performing at all, that's more than $20 million in new money to pay those guys. Plus, salaries for Anderson, Rodon, Eloy all go up. Assume the team keeps Mr. Lifetime Contract Abreu in 2021 for similar money. In that case, the White Sox's payroll commitments into the 2021 offseason are >$150 million. And that's with no bench and no closer. So, how does your team get any better in 2021 than they were in 2020? You have less than $10 million to spend, and little in the way of new prospects arriving. If your team wins 88 games next year, you lose your closer and bench and rotation depth so  your roster is worse on paper, you have little to no youth coming up...how do you get better? You better have someone break out, because now your expensive guys are now a year older. 

And in 2022, it gets worse, because each of those salaries keeps going up. So, if you go to $160 million this year, and that's your payroll limit without new revenue growth, you better win the Central with ease and soon. If you don't, then in 2022, you're set up to start the next rebuild, because you've got to clear some payroll. 

If you add the five or six players I suggested Cole, Wheeler, Grandal, Solid RF and Solid 2 bullpen pieces plus Robert/Madrigal/Kopeck +++I would expect to run away with this division.  Also, I refuse to accept the premise that being the 11th highest payroll in baseball is beyond this franchises resources.  Lastly...I am not saying no one needs to spend carefully...I maintain that we can afford any of the available toys the FO deems necessary.  The franchise has the money to afford Cole and whoever else would be wanted to jump start the next phase.

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1 hour ago, poppysox said:

If you add the five or six players I suggested Cole, Wheeler, Grandal, Solid RF and Solid 2 bullpen pieces plus Robert/Madrigal/Kopeck +++I would expect to run away with this division.  Also, I refuse to accept the premise that being the 11th highest payroll in baseball is beyond this franchises resources.  Lastly...I am not saying no one needs to spend carefully...I maintain that we can afford any of the available toys the FO deems necessary.  The franchise has the money to afford Cole and whoever else would be wanted to jump start the next phase.

I certainly wouldn't. The teams at the top of this division are good. And injuries can happen. And guys sometimes underperform, especially when bought on the free agent market. But maybe you're certain on that.

Are you so certain that you would say you're ok with rebuilding again in 2021 if you're wrong?

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25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I certainly wouldn't. The teams at the top of this division are good. And injuries can happen. And guys sometimes underperform, especially when bought on the free agent market. But maybe you're certain on that.

Are you so certain that you would say you're ok with rebuilding again in 2021 if you're wrong?

Twins are really damn good and already came out today and said they want to spend on top-tier pitching 

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58 minutes ago, fathom said:

Twins are really damn good and already came out today and said they want to spend on top-tier pitching 

The Twins have 1 major league SP under control next season.  they have a LOT of work to do this offseason. 

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17 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

The Twins have 1 major league SP under control next season.  they have a LOT of work to do this offseason. 

The Twins are young, have a very good farm system,  at least as much payroll flexibility as the Sox, and a better front office team.  They will be tough to compete with.

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Rendon has a decent glove at 3B. Moncada would likely be above average to elite in the outfield given his speed and arm. Add Robert in center and Madrigal at 2nd and you have an extremely good defense. I would be completely ok with moving Moncada to the OF because we signed Rendon. 

Edited by ron883

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7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I certainly wouldn't. The teams at the top of this division are good. And injuries can happen. And guys sometimes underperform, especially when bought on the free agent market. But maybe you're certain on that.

Are you so certain that you would say you're ok with rebuilding again in 2021 if you're wrong?

The World could end tomorrow.  You are certainly  a half glass empty sort of guy.

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52 minutes ago, poppysox said:

The World could end tomorrow.  You are certainly  a half glass empty sort of guy.

So you're not as confident as you wanted to sound. My point exactly.

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

So you're not as confident as you wanted to sound. My point exactly.

What?

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35 minutes ago, poppysox said:

What?

I put you on the spot to test whether you really believed they'd be the overwhelming favorites and you wouldn't stand behind your own words. Which is 100% correct! Even if they did all that, there would be people who would pick them for the division, but there'd be plenty of reason to pick the other 2 teams. That's why the "all in 2020 or bust" style of buying everything...really isn't the right move. There needs to be a plan for how we get better this year and how we get better in 2021 if this year doesn't go well.

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11 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all it's $30 million more than this franchise has ever done, so I do doubt we're going that high. But, I've been surprised before, so I'm not going to say we won't. We could get to that, but if that's our limit - hitting our limit next year is a huge mistake

If we did all those contracts next year and win the Central, which is possible, then maybe playoff revenue supports slight payroll growth in 2021. But let's say that adding those guys takes this 70 win team up to 88 wins, and we miss the Wild Card by 5 or 6 wins since the top of the league is so good.

What contracts end after 2021? Let's assume the $10 million pitcher contract ends, Colome's contract ends, Herrera's contract ends, Leury's contract ends. That's $32 million-ish that comes off the books. But, in 2021...Moncada, Giolito, and Lopez all hit arbitration for the first time. If they continue performing at all, that's more than $20 million in new money to pay those guys. Plus, salaries for Anderson, Rodon, Eloy all go up. Assume the team keeps Mr. Lifetime Contract Abreu in 2021 for similar money. In that case, the White Sox's payroll commitments into the 2021 offseason are >$150 million. And that's with no bench and no closer. So, how does your team get any better in 2021 than they were in 2020? You have less than $10 million to spend, and little in the way of new prospects arriving. If your team wins 88 games next year, you lose your closer and bench and rotation depth so  your roster is worse on paper, you have little to no youth coming up...how do you get better? You better have someone break out, because now your expensive guys are now a year older. 

And in 2022, it gets worse, because each of those salaries keeps going up. So, if you go to $160 million this year, and that's your payroll limit without new revenue growth, you better win the Central with ease and soon. If you don't, then in 2022, you're set up to start the next rebuild, because you've got to clear some payroll. 

Rodon is one pretty obvious cut if he struggles mightily in his return next year.   Lopez might or might not still be in the picture, or he could be moved to closer, replacing Colome (sure, fairly unlikely.)

I don’t see adding Rendon, a $30+ million long-term frontline starting pitcher or Grandal...although Grandal AND JDM AND one starter at least seems possible.

It’s hard also to believe they’re going to add two pitchers making over $15 million, for that matter.   A Wheeler AND R.Hill/Hamels/Miley/Wacha combination seems to be another way they’d go, based on past history,

Ozuna and Rendon are just going up in price at this point...the Eeovaldi Effect.   Same with Stras.

Edited by caulfield12

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