White Sox part ways w/ Todd Steverson & Greg Sparks, name Frank Menechino as new Hitting Coach

[Black_Jack29]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Agreed...Ricky even said his own players were voicing Todd out.  That to me was the death blow and a sign changes would be coming.

My first thought was, "Yeah, he's failed to get results for years, but why now *after* he's finally managed to results from young players?" I guess this is the answer.

 

1 hour ago, bubba phillips said:

Exhibit A of a player the Sox drafted, couldn't develop, gave up on, and basically gave him away in a horrid trade.

Whenever I think to myself, "Hahn and Kenny are professionals, they have to have some sort of plan," I remember the Semien and Tatis, Jr. trades. They should've both been fired after Tatis-for-Shields.

[TaylorStSox]

For some reason I find the Semien revisionism frustrating. I think it's just that a group of us loved him as a prospect. That's just not how it went down. He was the main piece in what they thought would be either a lower end #1 or upper end #2. It wasn't just that they gave up on him, didn't develop him, or misidentified his talent. 

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

For some reason I find the Semien revisionism frustrating. I think it's just that a group of us loved him as a prospect. That's just not how it went down. He was the main piece in what they thought would be either a lower end #1 or upper end #2. It wasn't just that they gave up on him, didn't develop him, or misidentified his talent. 

Balta, myself...many others argued endlessly that he wasn’t simply “doomed” to be a 30-40 error infielder for the rest of his career and that moving him all over the infield wasn’t doing him any favors.

It’s ironic that the one position they played him at the least (SS, compared to 3B and 2B) turned out to be his best.

Now some will argue Alexei Ramirez, but you owe it to your infield prospects to force themselves off SS first before accepting them as utility guys, ala Yolmer, Saladino and Leury.

[Moan4Yoan]

1 hour ago, Blackout Friday said:

They drafted him in the 6th round and developed him into an interesting asset and used him in part to acquire a pretty valuable arm. 

This is the equivalent to giving the Sox credit for signing Tatis Jr.  If they couldn’t recognize that both Semien and Tatis Jr. were both better talents than the two bum starters they gave them up for, they lose most of the credit because they obviously didn’t acknowledge their superior talent and value.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[southsideirish71]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Balta, myself...many others argued endlessly that he wasn’t simply “doomed” to be a 30-40 error infielder for the rest of his career and that moving him all over the infield wasn’t doing him any favors.



It’s ironic that the one position they played him at the least (SS, compared to 3B and 2B) turned out to be his best.



Now some will argue Alexei Ramirez, but you owe it to your infield prospects to force themselves off SS first before accepting them as utility guys, ala Yolmer, Saladino and Leury.



The A's actually took the time to develop his defense.    That is more of an indictment of our development process for the White Sox.  If he stayed in our organization he would probably be an OF right now.  I haven't seen anything that says that we value teaching the fundamentals of defense across the board.  I am hoping Vizquel at the AA level will help to change that.  

[Moan4Yoan]

29 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

For some reason I find the Semien revisionism frustrating. I think it's just that a group of us loved him as a prospect. That's just not how it went down. He was the main piece in what they thought would be either a lower end #1 or upper end #2. It wasn't just that they gave up on him, didn't develop him, or misidentified his talent. 

I agree with half of your post.  Semien had a paltry 326 mediocre plate appearances across 1.5 seasons in a White Sox uniform but his minor league offensive numbers were very good for a middle infielder.  The Sox traded him at 23 years of age.  There was plenty of time for him to pan out, just like he did.

However, the Sox failed to recognize that Semien was a better talent than the bum starter they acquired with only one year of control.  This is the problem with the trade, just like the Tatis Jr. trade.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[chitownsportsfan]

18 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

This is the equivalent to giving the Sox credit for signing Tatis Jr.  If they couldn’t recognize that both Semien and Tatis Jr. were both better talents than the two bum starters they gave them up for, they lose most of the credit because they obviously didn’t acknowledge their superior talent and value.

Indeed.  I can almost forgive Tatis Jr because he was barely in the system but to fail to properly self scout Semien  is just what. the.  fuck.  YOU are the club that is around him all the time and that is how badly your eval turns out?

Semien has been building on this.  He didn't just get good this year.  The Sox fucked up badly evaluating him.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[Sleepy Harold]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Yandy Diaz leading the Rays to a playoff win...

FIFY

[maxjusttyped]

54 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

Nobody is going to turn this roster into a patient one. Moncada is the only one with a really high obp profile, and it was obvious he made an effort to be more aggressive because he got jobbed so much last year with 2 strikes. 

It isn't just plate discipline, but someone like Eloy could use a swing alteration. He is an extreme oppo/groundball hitter and the success he had as a hitter came in spite of that. I do think there are hitting coaches out there that could help Sox hitters tap into whatever their most efficient swing and approach at the plate is. I don't think it's coincidental players went to  Robert Van Scoyoc (now the Dodgers hitting coach, was previously a hitting guru that worked with players like JD Martinez, Josh Donaldson, and Mookie Betts) and they saw drastic improvements in their performance afterwards.

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

The A's actually took the time to develop his defense.    That is more of an indictment of our development process for the White Sox.  If he stayed in our organization he would probably be an OF right now.  I haven't seen anything that says that we value teaching the fundamentals of defense across the board.  I am hoping Vizquel at the AA level will help to change that.  

You could even say that we did the same with Eduardo Escobar...decided he couldn’t hit enough for an everyday position before he had a real opportunity to establish himself.

[TaylorStSox]

40 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Indeed.  I can almost forgive Tatis Jr because he was barely in the system but to fail to properly self scout Semien  is just what. the.  fuck.  YOU are the club that is around him all the time and that is how badly your eval turns out?

Semien has been building on this.  He didn't just get good this year.  The Sox fucked up badly evaluating him.  

This just isn't how it went down. 

[TaylorStSox]

59 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

The A's actually took the time to develop his defense.    That is more of an indictment of our development process for the White Sox.  If he stayed in our organization he would probably be an OF right now.  I haven't seen anything that says that we value teaching the fundamentals of defense across the board.  I am hoping Vizquel at the AA level will help to change that.  

He's exactly what we thought he'd be defensively - solid, good hands, not much range and below average athleticism relative to other SS.

 

I'm down with hating on the Sox development staff, but Semien is exactly the player you should not use as evidence. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by TaylorStSox

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

He's exactly what we thought he'd be defensively - solid, good hands, not much range and below average athleticism relative to other SS.

 

I'm down with hating on the Sox development staff, but Semien is exactly the player you should not use as evidence. 

And all those raw tools do what for Anderson?

Even Tatis, for having the tools to be the best SS in baseball, ended up slightly negative in some metrics because of all the ill-advised throw to first and trying to force DP’s at second instead of taking easy outs.  

Granted, he was a 20 year old jumping from AA to the bigs, but Semien’s numbers in that pitcher’s park are no joke on either side of the ball.

[Y2Jimmy0]

14 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Steverson came from outside the organization; that's the one "mistake" that they'll probably make sure that they don't make twice. 

On a macro level, the White Sox hitting was wanting.  But some individual players improved.  Adam Engel improved a lot.  I'm just not sure how much they can really expect out of Yolmer, Leury, et al, regardless of coach.

Adam Engel improved a lot after going down to AAA and working with Frank Menechino. Every player that we talked to at Charlotte or that went through there raved about Menechino. He knows how to optimize swings and he preaches plate discipline. He was in Miami with Stanton, Ozuna and Yelich as well. I'd be totally fine if Menechino is the guy but I bet they employ two hitting coaches next year. 

[GradMc]

15 hours ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Wish Cooper was gone. He’s way past his prime.

Cooper is Reinsdorf's eyes and ears in the clubhouse. He survives all managerial changes which is yet another reason anyone looking for an significant upgrade at the managerial position can as the native New Yorker chairman would say: fuggetaboutit.

Cooper's reputation as an effective pitching coach has reached mythical levels.

Edited October 3, 2019 by GradMc

[reiks12]

How are the defensive coaches still here? Capra (I think) has been working with Anderson and made him worse. During the season he was having him practice acrobatic throws, jump throws, and throws from sitting down. What Anderson wasn't working on was developing a solid fundamental base. The result was a putrid defensive season. 

Going back to the Semien discussion, the A's actually employed a defensive guru in Washington. Look what that did for Semien's performance and development! To those that say coaches don't matter I would suggest you look up what Ron Washington has done for his teams defensively. 

It is also so worrying how this organization discredits analytics. We could amass all the talent in the world but until we learn how to properly develop players and coach from rookie league to MLB we will ALWAYS be behind teams like the Astros, Yankees, Rays, A's, and Twins. They will supplement their teams on a yearly basis.

Cooper needs to go as well but we all know that. Honestly it wouldn't matter who they replaced him with because its a rotten system. Hearing Cole and Verlander rave about how the Astros had them change their pitching just makes me so jealous because we are stuck with this org and outdated philosophy. Our ace pitcher had to return to his HIGH SCHOOL COACH to reach his full potential. How can we compete with teams that are in 2019 when we are stuck in 1985?

Edited October 3, 2019 by reiks12

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

How are the defensive coaches still here? Capra (I think) has been working with Anderson and made him worse. During the season he was having him practice acrobatic throws, jump throws, and throws from sitting down. What Anderson wasn't working on was developing a solid fundamental base. The result was a putrid defensive season. 

Going back to the Semien discussion, the A's actually employed a defensive guru in Washington. Look what that did for Semien's performance and development! To those that say coaches don't matter I would suggest you look up what Ron Washington has done for his teams defensively. 

And Capra was an outfielder during his big league career.

Kind of figures.  

It’s not like Vizquel isn’t sitting there in our minor league system.  Heck, after Robert and Madrigal moved up, Vizquel should have been visiting Chicago regularly in the second half to work with JUST Moncada and Anderson.

[ewokpelts]

Thank Christ. 

[ChiSox59]

16 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Requirements for promotion to the big league team.  

1.) Did you play for the whitesox?

2.) Did you coach in the minors for the whitesox?

3.) Have you passed the 15 year mark in the organization?
 

Frank Menechino has been in the Sox organization for just the 2019 season.  So this isn't your usual White Sox promoting "their guys".  

[TaylorStSox]

30 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

How are the defensive coaches still here? Capra (I think) has been working with Anderson and made him worse. During the season he was having him practice acrobatic throws, jump throws, and throws from sitting down. What Anderson wasn't working on was developing a solid fundamental base. The result was a putrid defensive season. 

Going back to the Semien discussion, the A's actually employed a defensive guru in Washington. Look what that did for Semien's performance and development! To those that say coaches don't matter I would suggest you look up what Ron Washington has done for his teams defensively. 

It is also so worrying how this organization discredits analytics. We could amass all the talent in the world but until we learn how to properly develop players and coach from rookie league to MLB we will ALWAYS be behind teams like the Astros, Yankees, Rays, A's, and Twins. They will supplement their teams on a yearly basis.

Cooper needs to go as well but we all know that. Honestly it wouldn't matter who they replaced him with because its a rotten system. Hearing Cole and Verlander rave about how the Astros had them change their pitching just makes me so jealous because we are stuck with this org and outdated philosophy. Our ace pitcher had to return to his HIGH SCHOOL COACH to reach his full potential. How can we compete with teams that are in 2019 when we are stuck in 1985?

This is front runner for the hot take of the day. I'm sure Caulfield will beat it though. 

[reiks12]

2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

This is front runner for the hot take of the day. I'm sure Caulfield will beat it though. 

Had to take a breather after typing that rant out. Im good now

[chitownsportsfan]

2 hours ago, reiks12 said:

How are the defensive coaches still here? Capra (I think) has been working with Anderson and made him worse. During the season he was having him practice acrobatic throws, jump throws, and throws from sitting down. What Anderson wasn't working on was developing a solid fundamental base. The result was a putrid defensive season. 

Going back to the Semien discussion, the A's actually employed a defensive guru in Washington. Look what that did for Semien's performance and development! To those that say coaches don't matter I would suggest you look up what Ron Washington has done for his teams defensively. 

It is also so worrying how this organization discredits analytics. We could amass all the talent in the world but until we learn how to properly develop players and coach from rookie league to MLB we will ALWAYS be behind teams like the Astros, Yankees, Rays, A's, and Twins. They will supplement their teams on a yearly basis.

Cooper needs to go as well but we all know that. Honestly it wouldn't matter who they replaced him with because its a rotten system. Hearing Cole and Verlander rave about how the Astros had them change their pitching just makes me so jealous because we are stuck with this org and outdated philosophy. Our ace pitcher had to return to his HIGH SCHOOL COACH to reach his full potential. How can we compete with teams that are in 2019 when we are stuck in 1985?

One of the arguments of The MVP Machine and one they stressed it that most of the innovation is coming from the lower levels.  Partly because orgs in pro ball like the Sox are so rigid and stuck in their ways (and still make a hefty profit and everybody in the FO usually keeps their job) whereas in HS and College you have to win to move up and keep your job and that's where the innovation comes from.

Honestly other than pedigree Gio's HS coach might be a better coach than Cooper.

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, reiks12 said:

How are the defensive coaches still here? Capra (I think) has been working with Anderson and made him worse. During the season he was having him practice acrobatic throws, jump throws, and throws from sitting down. What Anderson wasn't working on was developing a solid fundamental base. The result was a putrid defensive season. 

Going back to the Semien discussion, the A's actually employed a defensive guru in Washington. Look what that did for Semien's performance and development! To those that say coaches don't matter I would suggest you look up what Ron Washington has done for his teams defensively. 

It is also so worrying how this organization discredits analytics. We could amass all the talent in the world but until we learn how to properly develop players and coach from rookie league to MLB we will ALWAYS be behind teams like the Astros, Yankees, Rays, A's, and Twins. They will supplement their teams on a yearly basis.

Cooper needs to go as well but we all know that. Honestly it wouldn't matter who they replaced him with because its a rotten system. Hearing Cole and Verlander rave about how the Astros had them change their pitching just makes me so jealous because we are stuck with this org and outdated philosophy. Our ace pitcher had to return to his HIGH SCHOOL COACH to reach his full potential. How can we compete with teams that are in 2019 when we are stuck in 1985?

Super Joe works with Anderson.  I thought Omar might be a good choice to add to the staff, but since he has already been on an MLB staff, maybe he prefers to manage in the minors. Maybe he thinks that's his best path to a MLB managing gig. 

If Coop goes, Hassler will take over. The White Sox obviously think coaching is not a problem, so therefore, since there has been a problem, it's on the 3 Musketeers. 

I think this is a decent start. They aren't looking for every excuse to keep someone anymore, which seemed to be the norm before, because you can make a case with Moncada, and Anderson, since he really worked with them, and maybe even McCann, although his transformation started before he suited up, Steverson probably had his best season. Makes you wonder what they were looking at earlier. 

[GreenSox]

6 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Adam Engel improved a lot after going down to AAA and working with Frank Menechino. Every player that we talked to at Charlotte or that went through there raved about Menechino. He knows how to optimize swings and he preaches plate discipline. He was in Miami with Stanton, Ozuna and Yelich as well. I'd be totally fine if Menechino is the guy but I bet they employ two hitting coaches next year. 

That's good to know.  Mercedes also had an excellent year across 2 levels, including Birmingham where he ranked while others wilted.

[pcq]

18 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Indeed.  I can almost forgive Tatis Jr because he was barely in the system but to fail to properly self scout Semien  is just what. the.  fuck.  YOU are the club that is around him all the time and that is how badly your eval turns out?

Semien has been building on this.  He didn't just get good this year.  The Sox fucked up badly evaluating him.  

The guys we gave up for Shark was not a strong move. He was very ordinary and trading for Peavy was as bad or worse. Not as bad as what Dombro signed Sale for. Sale will have medical issues for however long he lasts.