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Zack Wheeler Thread

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Isn't IncarceratedBob the know-nothing blowhard that cubs fans absolutely swear by? Probably sharing another person just throwing stuff at the wall, but that's what the off-season is until he actually signs somewhere.

 

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1 minute ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

Isn't IncarceratedBob the know-nothing blowhard that cubs fans absolutely swear by? Probably sharing another person just throwing stuff at the wall, but that's what the off-season is until he actually signs somewhere.

 

Yea this guy is full of crap. Believe he also predicted Machado to Sox last year. 

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17 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

Isn't IncarceratedBob the know-nothing blowhard that cubs fans absolutely swear by? Probably sharing another person just throwing stuff at the wall, but that's what the off-season is until he actually signs somewhere.

 

IB used to do Football and slobbed on the Jets knob, was wrong at that too.  That guy is something else.

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One thing to consider about Wheeler is the fact that he was pitching to Ramos in NY. With Grandal catching him who knows the improvements he might develop whether it be incremental or substantial. 

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24 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The Reds are trying to Padres us and are going after Wheeler and RFs. We are gonna have to up the ante for Wheeler I think at some point. 

This must not worry the saints of the White Sox 

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7 hours ago, turnin' two said:

Signing two guys as opposed to one with a similar outlay is about risk mitigation.  Because how often are rotations healthy?  The answer seems to be pretty darn infrequently.  It could also give you flexibility to move guys around a bit (Lopez and Rodon to the bullpen, or something like that) and still have an extremely talented rotation.  Mostly, it would be a way to spend the same money, but to have a little more insurance in terms of talent on the team.  This is probably a reaction similar to a person that has almost starved always keeping excessive amounts of food on hand due to fear (in this case starving is Dylan Covey, Despaigne, Shields, Nova and all the other batting practice we've had to endure the last few seasons).

And while Ryu does have injury concerns, his results, when healthy are significantly better than the results Wheeler has been able to post.  He doesn't have the sexy fastball, but he has a better ERA, FIP, WHIP,  BB/K (their h/9, hr/9 and k/9 are very similar over their careers, with more of an advantage to Ryu the last 2 seasons).  And while Wheeler has been really good the last 2 seasons, Ryu has been better in just about every area -- except innings pitched--- which speaks to your point, and is a legit concern.  But even with that, he has been nothing short of outstanding the last two seasons.  

Not that it'll happen, I just thought it was an interesting question, and apparently I was the only one.  Seems pretty typical of me.  I'll stop gumming up the thread.

No you are not the only one. I've made posts like yours too. I've mostly sighted how long it could possibly take Kopech, Cease , Lopez to reach the level  worthy enough to be in the top 3 in the rotation of a World Series Contender. Especially now with the addition of Grandal the lineup is looking much better and it appears the need to sign a DH is unnecessary even though people continue to post about getting one.

I understand the mistrust of Collins but why so much trust in Kopech and Cease ? Are they not all similar in that we don't know how they will perform ? Collins actually has the most recent dominant performance in the minors  among the three which give me some confidence that among ABreu, Grandal, Collins and McCann we have DH covered. I also have much more confidence in the starting lineup with the additions of Robert and Madrigal who are also unknowns but I just expect position players to be more durable and more likely to hit the ground running than young starting pitchers. A big year from Eloy helps too and I'd be fine with a repeat year from Moncada if he plays a few more games.

I don't think it's that big  of a deal to sign someone like Wheeler to 4 or 5 years and also sign another guy to perhaps a 2 year deal which would allow Kopech time to get back to a full schedule of pitching and to experience the highs and lows associated with that and allows Cease the time to ramp up his game also. When Rodon comes back perhaps he can start or relieve depending on how the rest of the rotation is performing or if Kopech is piling up too many innings take over for him.

In order to get the innings eater type we want it might be necessary to go to 2 years anyway . I just prefer someone better than Nova to be that 2nd FA starter and if it takes giving someone better 2 years instead of 1 so be it. Trades can always be made if all of a sudden we have too much pitching.But I don't think signing a second FA starter to a 2 year contract instead of 1 year will result in too much pitching.

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2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

No you are not the only one. I've made posts like yours too. I've mostly sighted how long it could possibly take Kopech, Cease , Lopez to reach the level  worthy enough to be in the top 3 in the rotation of a World Series Contender. Especially now with the addition of Grandal the lineup is looking much better and it appears the need to sign a DH is unnecessary even though people continue to post about getting one.

I understand the mistrust of Collins but why so much trust in Kopech and Cease ? Are they not all similar in that we don't know how they will perform ? Collins actually has the most recent dominant performance in the minors  among the three which give me some confidence that among ABreu, Grandal, Collins and McCann we have DH covered. I also have much more confidence in the starting lineup with the additions of Robert and Madrigal who are also unknowns but I just expect position players to be more durable and more likely to hit the ground running than young starting pitchers. A big year from Eloy helps too and I'd be fine with a repeat year from Moncada if he plays a few more games.

I don't think it's that big  of a deal to sign someone like Wheeler to 4 or 5 years and also sign another guy to perhaps a 2 year deal which would allow Kopech time to get back to a full schedule of pitching and to experience the highs and lows associated with that and allows Cease the time to ramp up his game also. When Rodon comes back perhaps he can start or relieve depending on how the rest of the rotation is performing or if Kopech is piling up too many innings take over for him.

In order to get the innings eater type we want it might be necessary to go to 2 years anyway . I just prefer someone better than Nova to be that 2nd FA starter and if it takes giving someone better 2 years instead of 1 so be it. Trades can always be made if all of a sudden we have too much pitching.But I don't think signing a second FA starter to a 2 year contract instead of 1 year will result in too much pitching.

The best-case scenario is either Rodon or Lopez becomes a lockdown/elite closer in 2021 (so we can reallocate the Colome/Herrera money), Collins proves useful and three out of those five projected starters (including Dunning) succeed.

The reality is probably 2/5, going by Sox history.

Maybe Dunning can play up his stuff in the pen as well.

 

mid to late 2020

1-2 Wheeler or Giolito

3-4 Lopez or Kopech

5 Cease or Rodon

6 Veteran stopgap (Pineda, Gibson, Wacha, Wood, Porcello, Pomeranz, Gio G.)

7 legit pitchers for 5 spots is certainly reasonable.


Bullpen with Colome, Bummer, Cease or Rodon, Herrera, veteran RH addition ($4-7 million), Fry, Dunning, Marshall, etc.

 

Optimistically, 2 of Cease, Rodon, Lopez, Dunning could quickly make the pen a huge strength.  Agree 100% they still need to add two starters to avoid Detwiler/Covey/Despaigne starts.

Who knows, maybe Covey, Fulmer or Tyler Hamilton make remarkable bullpen comebacks.

 

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Could somebody explain this to me...or copy/paste if this was answered before (I'm too lazy to sift thru 25 pages)...

Anybody that signs Wheeler will have to surrender draft compensation, as he rejected a $17.8MM qualifying offer from the Mets a week ago. The White Sox and Angels would each give up their second-highest pick in 2020 and $500K of their international signing bonus pool, while the Padres and Twins would lose their third-highest selection.

Why does it only cost the Pads and Twins 3rd highest selection as opposed to 2nd? (due to last year?)

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11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Puig?

Well, he was on the Reds to end the season...technically, not stealing him away like Wheeler.

Maybe we should just trade for Dylan Bundy as our second starting pitching move of the offseason...according to that just-quoted The Athletic article, he shares a lot of the same qualities/traits/attributes as Zack Greinke, with two remaining arbitration seasons.  Of course, GRF isn’t exactly the definition of a pitcher-friendly park.

Bundy, who recently turned 27, might never possess elite command, but it would be interesting to see whether he could become a better pitcher with a fresh approach and more competitive team in a less hitter-friendly park. He is under club control for two more seasons — MLBTradeRumors.com projects him to earn $5.7 million in arbitration next season — and the Orioles are open to trading him.

Edited by caulfield12

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9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, he was on the Reds to end the season...technically, not stealing him away like Wheeler.

Maybe we should just trade for Dylan Bundy as our second starting pitching move of the offseason...according to that just-quoted The Athletic article, he shares a lot of the same qualities/traits/attributes as Zack Greinke, with two remaining arbitration seasons.  Of course, GRF isn’t exactly the definition of a pitcher-friendly park.

Bundy, who recently turned 27, might never possess elite command, but it would be interesting to see whether he could become a better pitcher with a fresh approach and more competitive team in a less hitter-friendly park. He is under club control for two more seasons — MLBTradeRumors.com projects him to earn $5.7 million in arbitration next season — and the Orioles are open to trading him.

You sure Puig was on the Reds at the end of last season?

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23 minutes ago, Wanne said:

Could somebody explain this to me...or copy/paste if this was answered before (I'm too lazy to sift thru 25 pages)...

Anybody that signs Wheeler will have to surrender draft compensation, as he rejected a $17.8MM qualifying offer from the Mets a week ago. The White Sox and Angels would each give up their second-highest pick in 2020 and $500K of their international signing bonus pool, while the Padres and Twins would lose their third-highest selection.

Why does it only cost the Pads and Twins 3rd highest selection as opposed to 2nd? (due to last year?)

Because twins and Padres are considered smaller market teams that get profit sharing so it only cost them 3rd round pick vs white sox being in a larger market and doesn't get profit sharing 

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19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, he was on the Reds to end the season...technically, not stealing him away like Wheeler.

Maybe we should just trade for Dylan Bundy as our second starting pitching move of the offseason...according to that just-quoted The Athletic article, he shares a lot of the same qualities/traits/attributes as Zack Greinke, with two remaining arbitration seasons.  Of course, GRF isn’t exactly the definition of a pitcher-friendly park.

Bundy, who recently turned 27, might never possess elite command, but it would be interesting to see whether he could become a better pitcher with a fresh approach and more competitive team in a less hitter-friendly park. He is under club control for two more seasons — MLBTradeRumors.com projects him to earn $5.7 million in arbitration next season — and the Orioles are open to trading him.

Gotcha, so you’re just making up a Sox to Puig rumor.

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8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Gotcha, so you’re just making up a Sox to Puig rumor.

Well, that just shows how much attention I paid to baseball last season...for my supposed favorite player.

Fwiw, there will be a number of articles linking Puig and the White Sox, starting out with the local a Chicago hacks.  It’s just way too obvious.  Shorter-term contract, former big name, also Cuban, happens to play the position which is the most glaring current positional need...and other options like Castellanos and Ozuna are being blocked at DH in 2021-22 by Abreu.

Who knows, maybe Avi comes back at this rate...since JR is feeling particularly sentimental.

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12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, that just shows how much attention I paid to baseball last season...for my supposed favorite player.

Fwiw, there will be a number of articles linking Puig and the White Sox, starting out with the local a Chicago hacks.  It’s just way too obvious.  Shorter-term contract, former big name, also Cuban, happens to play the position which is the most glaring current positional need...and other options like Castellanos and Ozuna are being blocked at DH in 2021-22 by Abreu.

Who knows, maybe Avi comes back at this rate...since JR is feeling particularly sentimental.

No there won’t be, but it’s storyline you will continue to push until we actually sign a RF.  I mean, there was nothing in that article mentioning Puig and you still felt compelled to bring him up.  I’m not trying to be dick, but you are obsessed with the dude my man.

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1 hour ago, aeichhor said:

 

It would feel really good to see the Sox take this out of the Twins price range. Would love to see the Twins miss out because of the Sox

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1 minute ago, Orlando said:

It would feel really good to see the Sox take this out of the Twins price range. Would love to see the Twins miss out because of the Sox

If you could get wheeler locked up before the winter meetings that would be huge so that way Hahn/Kenny can focus on the task of mind games with Scott Boras for one or two of his potential clients 

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1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No there won’t be, but it’s storyline you will continue to push until we actually sign a RF.  I mean, there was nothing in that article mentioning Puig and you still felt compelled to bring him up.  I’m not trying to be dick, but you are obsessed with the dude my man.

No win situation.

He does well and some will still be annoyed with him...more than likely he would still underperform casual fans’ expectations based on the comps to 2013-14 and what looked the time to be a star in the making.

From that original 9.4/4.7 average fWAR, he’s put up an 8.4 over 5 seasons, for an average of 1.7 (which also includes a third outlier season of 2.9)

Worst case scenario and he’s in that 1.5ish range.   Fwiw, the two projection systems at FG have him at 1.9 and 2.1.

Realistically, the main reason for the team is the marketing angle...the posters of Robert, Puig, Moncada, Grandal and Abreu...competing for eyeballs with the new Cubs’ network (especially if they overcharge and there’s a backlash).

Strictly a one year deal with an option based on incentives or a favorable club option for 2021 to protect against Sox prospect failure at a still reasonable rate of $10-14 million with 2020 being the low year.

I think Ozuna and probably Castellanos are off the table at this point.

He’s only going to be 29 and the media still follows him.  Heck, put him 6th/7th in the batting order...no pressure or expectation, and he might flourish with all the attention on Moncada, Eloy, Grandal, Madrigal and Robert.   That’s not even mentioning TA and Abreu.

Worst case scenario is he divides the clubhouse and has to be dumped...best case is a 3ish fWAR and we make the playoffs with a suddenly scary offense with almost no weaknesses from top to bottom.  Or (most optimistically) Mickey Adolfo is ready to replace him.

And the cost is half (at most) of which they just gifted Abreu.

 

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On 11/11/2019 at 4:22 PM, cjgalloway said:

I am pretty comfortable at 5 years 110 million for Wheeler as we sit today. 

Hell no.

How is he any different then Eovaldi? You want to go a bit higher fine but I don't see the logic in offering someone with his injury history a 5 year deal. Personally if we are not going to sign a front line starter I'd rather get some SP via the trade market.

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