Edwin Encarnacion - DH

[SonofaRoache]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

You can't expect them to fill all the holes with long term core players.  I don't really WANT EE, but he's a decent fall back option if the Sox can't get Grandal to sign the dotted line, or if Abreu leaves. 

EE is good for an 880 OPS and a 130-140 OPS+ the next few years. I can live with that until Vaughn is ready. 

[SonofaRoache]

43 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Please , it has nothing to do with a lack of competency and has everything to do with making the most of your payroll and letting the kids develop for another year. Collins isn't exactly the only one who will need time to show if he's any good. Robert , Madrigal, Kopech, Cease, Lopez ,Moncada, Eloy ,Giolito have 0 or 1 good year in the majors. The Sox aren't winning the World Series next year so testing the McCann/Collins duo is not a terrible thing. There's always JT Realmuto next year.

I think half the board expects the playoffs next year by the way they post. If you put Collins in with the 8 young players I listed , that's 9 guys that we still know very little or  nothing about. We all saw what Moncada , Giolito and Eloy are capable of and maybe they are capable of a lot more but that still leaves 6 others.

Of course people expect playoffs when the players and coaches are talking playoffs. Will we beat out other teams for JT next year? I doubt it. 

[caulfield12]

Interestingly, Puig, Avi, EE and Gardner are all ranked as having approximately the same amount of value on the FA market.

Take it for what it's worth.

[Balta1701]

30 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

EE is good for an 880 OPS and a 130-140 OPS+ the next few years. I can live with that until Vaughn is ready. 

And the .810 OPS he put up in 2018?

[SonofaRoache]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And the .810 OPS he put up in 2018?

That was factored in and the reason I kept the higher OPS' out in previous years. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

That was factored in and the reason I kept the higher OPS' out in previous years. 

You mean what he did when he was a 32 year old?

C'mon. He's a good hitter, but "he's good for the same performance in his 37-38 year old seasons that he did when he's 33-34", i mean maybe, but that's a bet that you'll lose more than you'll win. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

100% Encarnacion.  I’ll take Edwin’s 129 wRC+ over Moustakas’ 113 despite the positional flexibility Moose provides.

Bat wise Encarnacion is better, but Moose's positional versatility is something we could definitely use. It is because that he out-WAR EE 2.8 to 2.5. That plus age difference and LH bat, Moose gets the nod for me.

[Chicago White Sox]

23 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Bat wise Encarnacion is better, but Moose's positional versatility is something we could definitely use. It is because that he out-WAR EE 2.8 to 2.5. That plus age difference and LH bat, Moose gets the nod for me.

What’s Moose’s WAR if he starts 75% of his games at DH?

[BackDoorBreach]

I really don't get how Moose gets AB's, especially if they want Grandal as well.  He wouldn't really be a legitimate DH and you have Abreu, Collins, hypothetically Grandal as well bouncing around between DH/1B.  I wouldn't hate the signing I just don't see it depending on how things shake out.

[Balta1701]

43 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I really don't get how Moose gets AB's, especially if they want Grandal as well.  He wouldn't really be a legitimate DH and you have Abreu, Collins, hypothetically Grandal as well bouncing around between DH/1B.  I wouldn't hate the signing I just don't see it depending on how things shake out.

If you are signing Grandal, the motivation for Moustakas is far lower because you've found yourself LH hitting, middle of the order help, and you still have RF where you can add another LH bat if you're really after balance. If you sign Grandal and still want a DH, now you're in a much stronger place to go after Castellanos or Encarnacion (or trade for Martinez). You may as well hold onto Sanchez or pick up some other bench option (maybe one who can be a stronger backup SS like Iglesias) rather than going after Moustakas in that case. 

The downside of that set of moves, IMO, is that it leaves me fewer resources to spend on the pitching staff, which is still the way I'd handle this. 

[poppysox]

49 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I really don't get how Moose gets AB's, especially if they want Grandal as well.  He wouldn't really be a legitimate DH and you have Abreu, Collins, hypothetically Grandal as well bouncing around between DH/1B.  I wouldn't hate the signing I just don't see it depending on how things shake out.

Moose and EE are consolation prizes if you don't get Grandal.

[BackDoorBreach]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If you are signing Grandal, the motivation for Moustakas is far lower because you've found yourself LH hitting, middle of the order help, and you still have RF where you can add another LH bat if you're really after balance. If you sign Grandal and still want a DH, now you're in a much stronger place to go after Castellanos or Encarnacion (or trade for Martinez). You may as well hold onto Sanchez or pick up some other bench option (maybe one who can be a stronger backup SS like Iglesias) rather than going after Moustakas in that case. 

The downside of that set of moves, IMO, is that it leaves me fewer resources to spend on the pitching staff, which is still the way I'd handle this. 

 

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

Moose and EE are consolation prizes if you don't get Grandal.

I see posters arguing for Moose and Grandal, which to me you can't do/wasting money which was just my point.

 

If they end up with Nick for RF I still want them to get a 4th OF LH depth piece with pop even if we end up with Grandal as well.

[thxfrthmmrs]

59 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What’s Moose’s WAR if he starts 75% of his games at DH?

When Madrigal comes up, I prefer him as the primary 1B over Abreu.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

12 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yah, I think its a natural fit if they miss out on Grandal.

Or, in a less likely scenario, Abreu rejects QO and signs elsewhere.

EE is going to be cheap. He has legitimately no suitors.  On a 1 year deal with a team option (similar to deal Nelson Cruz got from Twins last offseason), seems like a decent backup plan. 

You’re going to be devastated when the Sox don’t sign Grandal.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You’re going to be devastated when the Sox don’t sign Grandal.

I mean, ya I’ll be disappointed. But life goes on. 

[Bob Sacamano]

2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You’re going to be devastated when the Sox don’t sign Grandal.

Personally, I'll feel meh about that haha

[zisk]

do any FA's available really mash RHP? I'd roll the dice on Zack Collins for LH DH if we had a guy who could handle lefties.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, zisk said:

do any FA's available really mash RHP? I'd roll the dice on Zack Collins for LH DH if we had a guy who could handle lefties.

McCann has historically hit RHP very well (career 117 wRC+).  Part of the reason why adding Grandal and then effectively platooning MCann & Collins across multiple positions make sense.

[Soxnfins]

19 hours ago, mqr said:

Not every position can or needs to be filled with an uber expensive FA. Encarnacion stands to be a 4 win improvement at the position over last year, and will allow flexibility for better FAs. 

No, I totally get it.  But I'm still failing to see how this opens up 'flexibility for better F/A' and how 'the money will be spent.' Not trying to piss you off, but I have zero faith that any spending will actually go on.  Kind of lost faith in that and something will come visa trade instead.

[Soxnfins]

16 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

In what world is a wRC+ of 129 at the DH spot a meh addition?  As the third or fourth best piece of an offseason, he’d be a tremendous addition.

3rd or 4th piece, sure.  But I'd be willing to bet that he'd be the second best behind someone like Wheeler (maybe), then we are tapped.

[ChiSoxJon]

18 hours ago, BrianAnderson said:

EE has all the markings of a Sox signing. There are literally no suitors for him - I can basically think of maybe... 2-3 legit teams at most. 

 

Yankees, Toronto, Tampa. Those are the three that you can make an argument for. Literally every other team has ZERO need for him. He does have experience in the AL East plus with two of those teams, but I find it hard to seriously consider Tampa spending on him because they have so many cheaper alternatives. Toronto probably makes the most sense if he enjoyed his time there. But outside of that, the Sox have a very clear path to signing him for maybe like a 1 year, $7mm deal with a $1-2mm buyout as incentive with a 2nd year mutual option for like another $6-8mm. 

I'd rather have him than Moose just due to the length of contract. 1 year should allow EE to take on 30-40 games at 1B, Abreu can man 1B this year and then move into a DH role if and when Vaughn is brought up. Nice stop gap. Smart, affordable, productive. All makes sense to me. We don't need to sign any world beaters this off season, we just need to learn our young talents ceilings (Madrigal, Robert, Kopech, Moncada, Anderson, Collins, etc.) at the MLB level so we can assess for the real WS run of 2022 (or possibly 2021). Be patient and give these guys one more year and then we can plug the holes via FA and trade where necessary.

I know people want to push the peddle down right now, but Astros, Yankees, Rays, A's, Boston and even Cleveland if they keep their pitching intact, are all wildly more qualified in the AL than we are in 2020. Not to mention the Dodgers, Nationals, Braves. Move slow, move cautiously, don't go all-in too early like the Padres did where you're now paying the price for bad signings that are getting in the way of your true window. 

This is the year you sign a few stop gap veterans who fill the bill and if truly you are going to spend for a few years in a championship window? You save that money now and apply it later. So give me EE, give me Betances, give me a 1-2 year corner OF which means Puig or Adam Jones or Gardner. Give me a nice veteran arm that gets the job done. Win yourself 81 games, learn to win, learn from vets. Build up an innings base on Kopech and Cease. And then take your giant step in 2021 to where you're dropping $325mm on Mookie Betts, where you're trading 3-4 top prospects for a controllable arm ala Gerrit Cole to the Astros. Go sign yourself an expensive FA pitcher. And really relish those 4-5 years of being in the race each year.

Next year FA class - Rizzo, LeMahieu, Mookie, Justin Turner DH, Cespedes DH,  Brantley, Springer, Bauer (which by the way is a JR wet dream if he truly only signs 1 year deals each year), Kluber, Minor, Morton, Paxton, Quintana, Richards, Robbie Ray, Stroman, Archer. I mean to me... that's the year you plug your holes... You can acquire a SP on the trade market or in FA for much cheaper if those are the options available next off-season. 

I say be patient and you can have the leauge's best OF for 2021-2026 in Eloy, Robert and Betts. your Infield would be Moncada, anderson, madrigal and Vaughn. You can sign yourself any of the other bats listed above as your DH in some combination. TRade your farm for a top SP. Sign yourself Kluber or one of the guys listed... all of a sudden it's:

1)Top Trade target SP, 2) Giolito, 3) Kopech, 4) Kluber, 5) Cease as your rotation. 

I for once am saying just to be patient. Collect your 81 wins this year on a small payroll and then take your d*ck out and flop it on the table and declare to the MLB that you're the kings of 2021-2025.  

I've laid out very similar thoughts on this board and have been destroyed, but agree with you 100%

Not only do short term productive vets not strap us down to a huge payments, but they let us compete as well while "filling the bill" (eating innings, mentoring, etc.) 

All for EE cheap (although I'm sure NYY or TOR bring him back), Puig is attractive as well and even Adams Jones and a vet arm or two as Hahn has hinted (Hamels, Miley, Nova)

Additionally, I've mentioned building an innings base on Kopech and Cease as well and been destroyed

And while bringing in Betts is no guarantee, it makes more sense to spend wild next year anyways and take the step from a winning contender to a WS contender

Not sure Cespedes will even be relevant a year from now however hahahaha

And boy is Eloy, Robert, and Betts frankly insane, what a luxury that would be

When the core of this team is set in stone, then is when you deal the leftovers for SP or whatever is needed to elevate us 

Excellent post that I hope gets received well

17 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Merkin has floated the name for whatever that’s worth.

Sox went after him last year as well

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

McCann has historically hit RHP very well (career 117 wRC+).  Part of the reason why adding Grandal and then effectively platooning MCann & Collins across multiple positions make sense.

Makes a ton of sense, McCann more likely a fluke than a breakout guy as well

Grandal would be able to hold down C for 3-4 years, great with pitchers, and defensively as well

[steveno89]

13 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Please , it has nothing to do with a lack of competency and has everything to do with making the most of your payroll and letting the kids develop for another year. Collins isn't exactly the only one who will need time to show if he's any good. Robert , Madrigal, Kopech, Cease, Lopez ,Moncada, Eloy ,Giolito have 0 or 1 good year in the majors. The Sox aren't winning the World Series next year so testing the McCann/Collins duo is not a terrible thing. There's always JT Realmuto next year.

I think half the board expects the playoffs next year by the way they post. If you put Collins in with the 8 young players I listed , that's 9 guys that we still know very little or  nothing about. We all saw what Moncada , Giolito and Eloy are capable of and maybe they are capable of a lot more but that still leaves 6 others.

Expecting playoffs? Absolutely not.

Collins has not shown enough to be our DH, and banking on Realmuto next year would be a mistake. Grab Grandal and EE now, along with two starting pitchers and either trade for or sign a RF. 

[he gone.]

1 hour ago, ChiSoxJon said:

I've laid out very similar thoughts on this board and have been destroyed, but agree with you 100%

Not only do short term productive vets not strap us down to a huge payments, but they let us compete as well while "filling the bill" (eating innings, mentoring, etc.) 

All for EE cheap (although I'm sure NYY or TOR bring him back), Puig is attractive as well and even Adams Jones and a vet arm or two as Hahn has hinted (Hamels, Miley, Nova)

Additionally, I've mentioned building an innings base on Kopech and Cease as well and been destroyed

And while bringing in Betts is no guarantee, it makes more sense to spend wild next year anyways and take the step from a winning contender to a WS contender

Not sure Cespedes will even be relevant a year from now however hahahaha

And boy is Eloy, Robert, and Betts frankly insane, what a luxury that would be

When the core of this team is set in stone, then is when you deal the leftovers for SP or whatever is needed to elevate us 

Excellent post that I hope gets received well

Sox went after him last year as well

Makes a ton of sense, McCann more likely a fluke than a breakout guy as well

Grandal would be able to hold down C for 3-4 years, great with pitchers, and defensively as well

Unfortunately it likely won't be haha. I've been prone to pushing this thing along quicker in the past, but at this point, and this is a big IF, IF we are truly going to believe in JR to do this the right way, then that right way is to wait a year and go insane on Mookie Betts. Castanellos is a nice bat, makes good contact, hits a shit ton of doubles, good teammate, hard worker, etc. He's fine. But why plug a hole with a guy that we saw what his open market trade value was vs. Mookie? 

This 2020 team is not winning a WS so there's no reason to add long term, big spend FA yet. If we as a board look at last offseason we probably went into it thinking Moncada was a toolsy, but likely overrated bust and a replacement level or so player at 2B .... this offseason we think he walks on the moon and are okay with passing on Anthony Rendon at 3B. Same with Giolito .... we have a totally different outlook on Reynaldo Lopez too. The thing is we need to do that again & see what we have in a bunch of guys. The good news is that this year probably represents a year where baseball shoudl be fun to watch all year with the Sox. So enjoy the last season of cheaper tickets, short bathroom lines, competitive baseball and watching the likes of a Collins, Madrigal, Robert, Eloy, Cease, Kopech learn and struggle and grow. Outside of a few guys (Cole, Rendon ... maybe Strasburg ... ) there aren't a whole ton of guys I think we should really be breaking the bank for because it's likely to be more of an impediment to our true Championship window which begins in 2022 (2021 if all goes extremely well)

 

True window goes back to what I'll always say **** 2021 might be us looking like the Braves and winning 90 games or the Astros winning 85-86 their first year when they lost to the Royals in the ALDS, or Cubs before their WS year. The talent will likely be there, but has to cure, learn how to win, be able to have pitching depth, etc. It may happen, but would be highly unlikely... 2022 is the year. (also that is assuming all players take positive steps forward... again... you look at the Cubs and almost any other team ever.... you have players who take steps forward, but also those who fall off..... Cubs fans thought their window would be ongoing forever.... look how quickly someone like a Happ or Schwarber not doing their job... or Addison Russell ... or even to an extent Kris Bryant .... etc etc. guys will regress. Moncada might not be the stud he was last year. Giolito may fall into old habits... things happen. injuries happen. That's why when you do win a WS its so damn satisfying.. everyhting has to fall into place. So my stance is to urge patience. We don't need another Herrera at $9mm a year for 3 years ... we need to save that money and apply it next offseason and the offseason after that. 

[caulfield12]

W. Smith, Harris, Hudson and Betances are the only relievers likely to be at or above the same we were willing to award Herrera.

[Balta1701]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

W. Smith, Harris, Hudson and Betances are the only relievers likely to be at or above the same we were willing to award Herrera.

And frankly we need to sign one.