Zack Wheeler: To the Phils (5yr 118); Sox had made BIGGER offer

[thxfrthmmrs]

17 minutes ago, fathom said:

Because the controllable starting pitcher would be a lot cheaper than overpaying for someone not quite as good, as opposed to what the cost would be to get a solid 2nd baseman (ie: Villar).

You’re not going to game the system this way, no one is going to trade a good controllable SP for Madrigal alone. Madrigal and Cease maybe. Also I think most of the controllable assets available in the trade market are position players, so there will be competitive bidding either way.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

18 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Bingo.  Finding a league avg 2B should not be difficult.  They just released one.  

We get that you dont like Madrigal.

If the Sox thought Madrigal was only as good as Yolmer they would likely trade him. 

I agree it's important to be able to evaluate your talent in house and move the pieces you think are overrated. That's important for a rebuild as well. I just dont think the sox should be in a position to move any of their huge prospects that were listed - maybe Vaughn if they felt inclined. Kopech and cease? Too risky to move either imo. Madrigal and Robert? Floors are too high to move those guys imo.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Chicago White Sox]

What controllable starting pitcher is going to be better than Wheeler?  Because honestly, I can’t think of many that will be available and not cost an absolute fortune.

[thxfrthmmrs]

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What controllable starting pitcher is going to be better than Wheeler?  Because honestly, I can’t think of many that will be available and not cost an absolute fortune.

Absorb Archer’s 2/$20M by trading prospects, or pay 2/$26M for Keuchel and no prospects? The answer is pretty easy on that one.

[Dlsoxfan]

Let's just sign Wheeler. And keep the major league ready prospects. Trading away valuable pieces that can help us win.

[Steve9347]

1 minute ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

Absorb Archer’s 2/$20M by trading prospects, or pay 2/$26M for Keuchel and no prospects? The answer is pretty easy on that one.

Chris Archer sucks

Dallas Keuchel sucks

[hi8is]

Yes.

[SoxAce]

31 minutes ago, mqr said:

Who is this controllable arm on the market? Cuz I’m not seeing one worth giving up actual assets for

At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +.

Edited December 2, 2019 by SoxAce

[HOFHurt35]

5 minutes ago, Steve9347 said:

Chris Archer sucks

Dallas Keuchel sucks

Chris Archer  or Dallas Keuchel + Madrigal. 

The answer is easy. 

Not endorsing Dallas Keuchel, just using this an example. 

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

10 minutes ago, Steve9347 said:

Chris Archer sucks

Dallas Keuchel sucks

They're both better than the AAAA clown car of a rotation the Sox have been throwing out there. If one of these sorts is signed to fill a rotation hole for a single season, fine.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +.

I think, at this point, Hader is a reliever. The Brewers have had SP issues, yet they've never attempted to stretch him out. 

It appears that his 3rd pitch never quite developed, and he is certainly a max effort guy as a reliever - you have to wonder how much juice and life his fastball would lose as a starter. 

The reluctance of the Brewers to put him there would lead me to believe that he just didn't play up as a starter. Reminds me a bit of the Aroldis Chapman situation.

[thxfrthmmrs]

13 minutes ago, Steve9347 said:

Chris Archer sucks

Dallas Keuchel sucks

You could do worse than Keuchel as your 2nd SP addition after Wheeler.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

They're both better than the AAAA clown car of a rotation the Sox have been throwing out there. If one of these sorts is signed to fill a rotation hole for a single season, fine.

Chris Archer was worse than Ivan Nova and he was in the NL. Archer is awful now.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Chris Archer was worse than Ivan Nova and he was in the NL. Archer is awful now.

I was speaking more towards Dallas Keuchel. Bringing Nova back (or someone like him) isn't a bad idea. Its not like there's guys knocking down the door in Charlotte.

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +.

If I were the Brewers, having seen what other players the truly elite relievers have returned in trades, I wouldn't send him to the White Sox for anything less than Robert. 

There's every reason to think that if they're patient some team will give up a top 20 or better player for him.

[bmags]

From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved)

[mqr]

23 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

At this point (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of his as a person) if you are talking about trading assets to get a guy, I would explore trading for Hader and making him a starter. The guy started most of his career in the minors before the Brewers put him in the bullpen. He has decreased his BB% the last 3 years and increased his SO per. He is controlled for 4 seasons. Stretch his arm in spring training and see what he can do as a SP. Otherwise, stay the course and get Wheeler +.

Yeah, I'm not punching a hole in my infield to get a reliever to take a chance on him starting

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved)

I really hope the Sox have a plan B if Wheeler is a swing and a miss.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If I were the Brewers, having seen what other players the truly elite relievers have returned in trades, I wouldn't send him to the White Sox for anything less than Robert. 

There's every reason to think that if they're patient some team will give up a top 20 or better player for him.

If you pretend 2016 didn't exist and somehow the Yankees didn't brainwash two teams into giving them way too much for relievers, there's really no precedent of an elite prospect being traded for a Bpen arm. I think 2016 was not the norm.

Osuna obviously had other things hampering his market (being a massive POS), but he was moved for another top talent RP. Britton had been hurt, but he was moved for middling prospects. 

Mejia was probably the highest priced paid, and he was trending downward at the time of his trade - anywhere from 25-40th in baseball. He was a 1 for 1 for Hand as well. 

If you view Robert as a top 3 prospect and talent, no way does he move for a reliever but it's all about how you value him. There's a huge value difference between a top 3 guy and a 20th ranked guy.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[SoxBlanco]

1 minute ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

I really hope the Sox have a plan B if Wheeler is a swing and a miss.

And I hope that plan B is to go all in on Cole or Strasburg and then go cheap for RF.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If you pretend 2016 didn't exist and somehow the Yankees didn't brainwash two teams into giving them way too much for relievers, there's really no precedent of an elite prospect being traded for a Bpen arm. I think 2016 was not the norm.

Osuna obviously had other things hampering his market (being a massive POS), but he was moved for another top talent RP. Britton had been hurt, but he was moved for middling prospects. 

Mejia was probably the highest priced paid, and he was trending downward at the time of his trade - anywhere from 25-40th in baseball. He was a 1 for 1 for Hand as well. 

If you view Robert as a top 3 prospect and talent, no way does he move for a reliever but it's all about how you value him. There's a huge value difference between a top 3 guy and a 20th ranked guy.

The nice thing for the Brewers is - with 4 years of control on the guy, if they don't get an enormous return for him there's no reason to move him. They can wait until the deadline, then they can wait until next offseason,  then they can wait til the deadline next year, and that's just in his first arbitration season.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

The nice thing for the Brewers is - with 4 years of control on the guy, if they don't get an enormous return for him there's no reason to move him. They can wait until the deadline, then they can wait until next offseason,  then they can wait til the deadline next year, and that's just in his first arbitration season.

They have a year, but I imagine hader is going to be enormously expensive in arb. There has been a real disconnect in arb salaries for relievers vs. starters. He's going to be an interesting case.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved)

This isn't really a surprise. Either way, the Sox could and should be able to outbid everyone for his services.

[thxfrthmmrs]

11 minutes ago, bmags said:

From latest an mlb roundup in the Athletic, it states that wheeler has the biggest market among starting pitchers (As in # of teams interested/involved)

I have a feeling Wheeler negotiations will drag on for a while and hope the Sox are focused on adding their second starter in parallel, be it Wood, Gio, Roark, etc., while others are focused on the Big 3.

Also, just selfishly speaking, we need another signing announced soon to keep the stove hot.

[thxfrthmmrs]

17 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If you pretend 2016 didn't exist and somehow the Yankees didn't brainwash two teams into giving them way too much for relievers, there's really no precedent of an elite prospect being traded for a Bpen arm. I think 2016 was not the norm.

Osuna obviously had other things hampering his market (being a massive POS), but he was moved for another top talent RP. Britton had been hurt, but he was moved for middling prospects. 

Mejia was probably the highest priced paid, and he was trending downward at the time of his trade - anywhere from 25-40th in baseball. He was a 1 for 1 for Hand as well. 

If you view Robert as a top 3 prospect and talent, no way does he move for a reliever but it's all about how you value him. There's a huge value difference between a top 3 guy and a 20th ranked guy.

Unfortunately the conversation WILL start with Robert. The closest comp to Hader is Chapman and in many ways he’s more valuable in that he’s truly a multi-inning closer, and he has a lot of control left. And if I’m not mistaken, at the time of trade Torres was already a mid season top 10 guy, or close to it. It was a huge overpay for half a season of Chapman, but for 4 years of Hader (even  considering his likely unprecedented RP arb cost), that will be the starting price.