BamaDoc Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 A wise man said "our best chance to get an ace may be to develop one". Okay this has been talked about in several threads so I was kinda putting my thoughts into one. Hope others in the med fields add to it especially if they have experience. I joked in a thread we should use our recovery blueprint as a selling point to guys like Taijuan Walker due to our rash of TJ injuries but in reality if we do rehab well it really would be a selling point. I know in the past our shoulder program was considered very good. Anyway to begin Hahn has pretty much stated Kopech has recovered well but will still have overall limits on his work load this coming season. First and foremost it would absolutely suck to be in contention late in the year and have to shut down our pitchers when we need them most. Cease is further out from his TJ but has never gone beyond the 141 IP of last year so he will have limits as well. Rodon, Dunning, Lambert will not even be ready at the start of the year and need close monitoring. Burdi who knows. Anyway with specifics for Kopech, not having him start the year with the big club could allow you to regain a year of control while easing/protecting him. I would do it for control but also as a way to potentially have him at the end of the year. I would put him at Birmingham if he is having any issues as Andrews is right there or Charlotte depending on early season travel and expected weather conditions. I would envision a 3-4-5 innings or 60-80-100 pitch max for him. I want to occasionally extend him so he uses his secondary/tertiary pitches more plus in the minors you can do that better without worrying about game outcomes as much. If you are doing pitch counts, you indirectly encourage him to be more efficient and use fewer pitches per inning, a problem young pitchers often have (Lopez). If his average is around 4 innings and about 30 starts you are at 120 innings. I would anticipate his max being 120-150 so you could keep him going later in the year if you are contending or let him pitch longer if his limit allows and you know there aren't going to have playoff starts. It would require a piggy back pitcher which isn't a problem in the minors and with modern pitching theory could be done in the majors. I had paired him with Gio Gonzalez in my previous plan as Gio tends to wear down so Gio would start early in the year and then piggy back after/when Kopech comes up if the staff condition at the time allows. It could benefit each of them. Kopech's heat followed by soft lefty may make an interesting contrast. Protecting our assets by such usage would also show other FA pitchers that we are actively concerned about their recoveries and obviously you would want to modify this if their is a better process. I had considered 10 three inning starts 10 at four and then 10 at five but I want pitch usage and occasional stretching out with a little more recovery time though admittedly I don't have evidence to back it up. If anyone does please add. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaDoc Posted December 11, 2019 Author Share Posted December 11, 2019 Bump as I think ptatc is medical and may have input and is on the board tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 @ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 On 12/7/2019 at 4:10 PM, BamaDoc said: A wise man said "our best chance to get an ace may be to develop one". Okay this has been talked about in several threads so I was kinda putting my thoughts into one. Hope others in the med fields add to it especially if they have experience. I joked in a thread we should use our recovery blueprint as a selling point to guys like Taijuan Walker due to our rash of TJ injuries but in reality if we do rehab well it really would be a selling point. I know in the past our shoulder program was considered very good. Anyway to begin Hahn has pretty much stated Kopech has recovered well but will still have overall limits on his work load this coming season. First and foremost it would absolutely suck to be in contention late in the year and have to shut down our pitchers when we need them most. Cease is further out from his TJ but has never gone beyond the 141 IP of last year so he will have limits as well. Rodon, Dunning, Lambert will not even be ready at the start of the year and need close monitoring. Burdi who knows. Anyway with specifics for Kopech, not having him start the year with the big club could allow you to regain a year of control while easing/protecting him. I would do it for control but also as a way to potentially have him at the end of the year. I would put him at Birmingham if he is having any issues as Andrews is right there or Charlotte depending on early season travel and expected weather conditions. I would envision a 3-4-5 innings or 60-80-100 pitch max for him. I want to occasionally extend him so he uses his secondary/tertiary pitches more plus in the minors you can do that better without worrying about game outcomes as much. If you are doing pitch counts, you indirectly encourage him to be more efficient and use fewer pitches per inning, a problem young pitchers often have (Lopez). If his average is around 4 innings and about 30 starts you are at 120 innings. I would anticipate his max being 120-150 so you could keep him going later in the year if you are contending or let him pitch longer if his limit allows and you know there aren't going to have playoff starts. It would require a piggy back pitcher which isn't a problem in the minors and with modern pitching theory could be done in the majors. I had paired him with Gio Gonzalez in my previous plan as Gio tends to wear down so Gio would start early in the year and then piggy back after/when Kopech comes up if the staff condition at the time allows. It could benefit each of them. Kopech's heat followed by soft lefty may make an interesting contrast. Protecting our assets by such usage would also show other FA pitchers that we are actively concerned about their recoveries and obviously you would want to modify this if their is a better process. I had considered 10 three inning starts 10 at four and then 10 at five but I want pitch usage and occasional stretching out with a little more recovery time though admittedly I don't have evidence to back it up. If anyone does please add. Interesting thoughts here. With the pitching trend the wat it is now, there will always be high pitch counts early in games for pitchers like kopech. He has never thrown more than 140 innings in a season regardless of the UCL surgery so his limit is probably about that number. I really don't like the idea if wasting his development and innings in the minors but the service time may be worth it. I could see a kopech/rodon combo for the season as one spot in the rotation. As far as the rehab goes there really isn't much variance in UCL protocols. Unlike the shoulder where different muscles or parts of the cuff can be involved, the UCL is pretty much the same across the board. Burdi had a medial patella femoral ligament reconstruction due to a dislocated patella. I'm not surprised he had difficulty with his return as he must have list a great deal of leg strength. I think he will surprise people this year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaDoc Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) Rereading I will add for clarification. One start of 3 innings or 60 pitches. The next start 4 innings or 80 pitches. Third start 5 innings or 100 pitches. Repeat the cycle. The rest of my post stands. This could work for other pitchers coming back as well. Edited December 16, 2019 by BamaDoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centerfieldsixers Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I respect your opinion and those are your thoughts ... good points however disagree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaDoc Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, centerfieldsixers said: I respect your opinion and those are your thoughts ... good points however disagree Thank you very much and hopefully this board can be a place where people can respectfully disagree. Appreciate your thoughts as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisox378 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 One thing is for sure, the Sox need a veteran pitcher that can take these young guys under his wing. Giolito, Cease, Kopech are young guys that will need someone to grow with. Who is that pitcher? King Felix.........? I would trade Reynaldo Lopez and Zack Collins to Boston for Benintendi, then sign Kuechel and King Felix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Chisox378 said: One thing is for sure, the Sox need a veteran pitcher that can take these young guys under his wing. Giolito, Cease, Kopech are young guys that will need someone to grow with. Who is that pitcher? King Felix.........? I would trade Reynaldo Lopez and Zack Collins to Boston for Benintendi, then sign Kuechel and King Felix. Please take a look at what King Félix has done the last three seasons before advocating to sign him. He’s completely done. I’ll even give you the link: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hernafe02.shtml Edited December 16, 2019 by Moan4Yoan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, BamaDoc said: Rereading I will add for clarification. One start of 3 innings or 60 pitches. The next start 4 innings or 80 pitches. Third start 5 innings or 100 pitches. Repeat the cycle. The rest of my post stands. This could work for other pitchers coming back as well. This would work. In the minors they would start him and have another pitcher piggyback with him. Personally, I would just start him in the MLB and have him end in august, then have Rodon take over for his spot when he returns. However, I get the service time concern and understand why they would do it. I just don't think he will learn to pitch to MLB hitters unless he is in the MLB so it will hurt his progession to start in the minors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaDoc Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 Part of me is hopeful that we could have meaningful games in the fall. If the average outing is 4 innings x 30 starts = 120 innings. It leaves enough innings to let him go six innings his last few starts or multiple 5 innings or most hopefully make post season starts. If his hard cap is 140-150 you might not have to shut him down yet you have still protected him. Obviously, this all changes if he appears fatigued/pain etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I would by no means push his pitch count just knowing that there can be setbacks. I know he is raring to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, BamaDoc said: Part of me is hopeful that we could have meaningful games in the fall. If the average outing is 4 innings x 30 starts = 120 innings. It leaves enough innings to let him go six innings his last few starts or multiple 5 innings or most hopefully make post season starts. If his hard cap is 140-150 you might not have to shut him down yet you have still protected him. Obviously, this all changes if he appears fatigued/pain etc. It may tax the bullpen but if they have a decent long guy it could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Would you guys do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: Would you guys do this? Probably not because then we would have two to three holes in the rotation, and I have no faith the Sox could get them replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: Would you guys do this? In a second. Won’t happen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Sean Jankowski should switch his interests to something simple like nuclear physics. Jeez, what a waste of fresh air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 13 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: Would you guys do this? Absolutely not. Have you looked at Arenado’s home/road splits? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: Would you guys do this? Arenado has an opt out after 2 seasons. That's a risk that you send off those kinds of prospects and then he bolts after 2 seasons. And there's the home/away splits. And there's the whole 'who's going to start for the Sox' question, since they didn't sign any free agent SP's, and this proposes we trade off Cease. I think I would say no. We're already in a pickle with the future of our rotation. Trading any of Giolito, Kopech or Cease is off the table IMO. Change it to Vaughn, Basabe and Collins and then I'd do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Merkin suspects Kopech will start 2020 in Charlotte... https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/inbox-white-sox-2020-outlook “I suspect he will open with Triple-A Charlotte, but he shouldn’t be there longer than April.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 17 hours ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: Would you guys do this? No. They could have signed Rendon for just money and we already don't have pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Merkin suspects Kopech will start 2020 in Charlotte... https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/inbox-white-sox-2020-outlook “I suspect he will open with Triple-A Charlotte, but he shouldn’t be there longer than April.” It dovetails nicely with getting the extra year back, so there's no doubt as soon as that day passes (it's like early may right?) he'll be up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, chitownsportsfan said: It dovetails nicely with getting the extra year back, so there's no doubt as soon as that day passes (it's like early may right?) he'll be up. I think its closer to mid May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said: Would you guys do this? I'd be concerned about now needing to find three pitchers. I would love to have him, but not huge on trading from a position of weakness for a position of strength. Edited December 17, 2019 by mqr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 38 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: It dovetails nicely with getting the extra year back, so there's no doubt as soon as that day passes (it's like early may right?) he'll be up. Oh yeah. We're loaded at SP so no need to have him up despite his getting injured in the bigs in a season where he was being paraded around for a few extra ticket sales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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