The Kris Bryant Grievance

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Zero chance Kopech would win a grievance against the Sox coming back from TJS, not pitching at all in 2019 and only having 14 MLB innings to his name. 

He should be kept in AAA for a bit regardless of health to build his arm back up facing hitters. 

If the Sox bring Kopech up immediately following the deadline, he would have a case regardless of everything being presented in this thread as evidence to the contrary.

If he dominates AAA in April, then what? If your argument is innings management, it's going to be more difficult to argue that if he's called up at a very convenient time for the organization.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[steveno89]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If the Sox bring Kopech up immediately following the deadline, he would have a case regardless of everything being presented in this thread as evidence to the contrary.

If he dominates AAA in April, then what? If your argument is innings management, it's going to be more difficult to argue that if he's called up at a very convenient time for the organization.

A young arm coming off of reconstructive elbow surgery that missed the entire 2019 season? 

Sox will park Kopech in AAA and see how it goes. At this stage I do not know how they could have him penciled into the rotation until they see how he does. Most players are able to make a full recovery, but not all. 

[Soxbadger]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If the Sox bring Kopech up immediately following the deadline, he would have a case regardless of everything being presented in this thread as evidence to the contrary.

Having a case and winning a case are very different. If the Sox manipulate his time properly, it would be difficult for Kopech to succeed. I would hope that the Sox have people working for them who are clever enough to figure out how to do that.

Even more importantly it kicks the can down the road. Who knows what happens with Kopech, maybe he gets traded, maybe he signs a long term deal. So the risk of pushing back his call up to manipulate service time is low.

Keeping down the 3 prospects is likely the best long term decision. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Soxbadger said:

Having a case and winning a case are very different. If the Sox manipulate his time properly, it would be difficult for Kopech to succeed. I would hope that the Sox have people working for them who are clever enough to figure out how to do that.

Even more importantly it kicks the can down the road. Who knows what happens with Kopech, maybe he gets traded, maybe he signs a long term deal. So the risk of pushing back his call up to manipulate service time is low.

Keeping down the 3 prospects is likely the best long term decision. 

I get it, and one of the things that may be the Sox biggest piece of supporting evidence is how much they are spending this off-season. They can likely claim that they were clearly trying to win, and thought this was the best decisions for the organization (keeping him down). 

I also agree that having a case is different than winning; if Bryant loses his case, none of this matters and it's a moot problem. If Bryant wins though? This opens up a big can of worms.

[Soxbadger]

25 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I get it, and one of the things that may be the Sox biggest piece of supporting evidence is how much they are spending this off-season. They can likely claim that they were clearly trying to win, and thought this was the best decisions for the organization (keeping him down). 

I also agree that having a case is different than winning; if Bryant loses his case, none of this matters and it's a moot problem. If Bryant wins though? This opens up a big can of worms.

If Bryant wins it will set a precedent for future cases. But that precedent may or may not be helpful to any of the Sox players. 

[pcq]

1 hour ago, Soxbadger said:

If Bryant wins it will set a precedent for future cases. But that precedent may or may not be helpful to any of the Sox players. 

So arbitration hearings have precedents? Doubtful. What you need is either collusion or a pattern of behavior.

[steveno89]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I get it, and one of the things that may be the Sox biggest piece of supporting evidence is how much they are spending this off-season. They can likely claim that they were clearly trying to win, and thought this was the best decisions for the organization (keeping him down). 

I also agree that having a case is different than winning; if Bryant loses his case, none of this matters and it's a moot problem. If Bryant wins though? This opens up a big can of worms.

Kopech would have no argument coming off TJS. The club can say they were protecting the player's long term future by having him rehab and build strength before being called back up to the majors. It's totally reasonable. 

[Panerista]

9 hours ago, Chisox378 said:

If Madrigal has a good spring they should bring him up on game #1. We want to win games, not worry about control and $.

This is baseball malpractice. You want a prime year, not a set of early season games.

Regardless of how you feel about whether or not it's right, the White Sox need control as long as possible.

9 hours ago, Hatchetman said:

That would be pretty tough to defend something so obvious in a grievance.

No defense needed. Rules are the rules. 

Here's what they can say: "We wanted the guys to start the season in meaningful but low stakes games." 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Eloy Jiménez

[greg775]

11 hours ago, Chisox378 said:

If Madrigal has a good spring they should bring him up on game #1. We want to win games, not worry about control and $.

Some of us want to win games now Chisox, other fans do worry about things like control. I'm sick of the losing. Just win now.

[ron883]

6 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Some of us want to win games now Chisox, other fans do worry about things like control. I'm sick of the losing. Just win now.

That was pretty anticlimactic. What happened to "Just.Win.Baby."? Where's the fire and passion at greg?

[steveno89]

23 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Some of us want to win games now Chisox, other fans do worry about things like control. I'm sick of the losing. Just win now.

And when the Sox go 7-9 in those early games and blow a valuable season of contractual control will it be worth it? 
 

gain the control. 

[Good Guys]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Some of us want to win games now Chisox, other fans do worry about things like control. I'm sick of the losing. Just win now.

No, all fans want to win games now.  Just some understand that from a money, control, and winning standpoint keeping players for an additional year is much more valuable than having them on a roster opening day.  Especially when most fans are in agreement that prime years of contention likely won't start until after 2020.

[GermanSoxFan]

Calling up Robert early for example, if you use WAR and are incredible optimistic that Robert is a 6 WAR player in his rookie year. The difference between Robert and Engel for the first two weeks would be less than one win.

Edited December 10, 2019 by GermanSoxFan

[Panerista]

7 hours ago, steveno89 said:

And when the Sox go 7-9 in those early games and blow a valuable season of contractual control will it be worth it? 
 

gain the control. 

If all that were to happen, Hahn should be fired. I say that as a usual Hahn defender.

[Chisox378]

7 hours ago, steveno89 said:

And when the Sox go 7-9 in those early games and blow a valuable season of contractual control will it be worth it? 
 

gain the control. 

It matters that we always do our best every game. Last season there were so many on this board who would rather lose(which in my opinion is cheating) to get a better draft pick instead of instilling an attitude of trying to win every game.  If we lose the division by 2 or 3 games and didnt start off well because we didnt put our best out there, then it will be our fault.

[Panerista]

I took some time off and forgot Chisox378 is a bit.

[Dick Allen]

One thing that shocked me yesterday, Kaplan, who is at the meetings was told by an exec that the Cubs are way behind the times analyically. They are trying to catch up. I always assumed Theo was on the cutting edge. 

[raBBit]

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

One thing that shocked me yesterday, Kaplan, who is at the meetings was told by an exec that the Cubs are way behind the times analyically. They are trying to catch up. I always assumed Theo was on the cutting edge. 

I think that's a fair assumption though. I mean It is Theo's league.

[mqr]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

One thing that shocked me yesterday, Kaplan, who is at the meetings was told by an exec that the Cubs are way behind the times analyically. They are trying to catch up. I always assumed Theo was on the cutting edge. 

The FO additions they've made this off-season would lend creedence to that. I always got the idea the Theo has been stuck on Moneyball, but with money, for too long. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

36 minutes ago, mqr said:

The FO additions they've made this off-season would lend creedence to that. I always got the idea the Theo has been stuck on Moneyball, but with money, for too long. 

He did create Carmine - which was his own statistical analysis system with the Red Sox but that was almost 20 years ago. The game has advanced so far beyond statistical analysis; with the advancements of technology. Theo was always behind when it came to pitching analytics - now that technology has paired with analytics, they've become doubly behind.

Theo isn't of the same mold of a lot of the investment-type executives that have begun to infiltrate the game. Theo's edge in the draft went away, and his success since then has not been great. His trades when the Cubs were advancing to contention were very very good, but it's hard to say whether Arrieta was luck or not... with all his other outcomes in the pitching market, it doesn't seem like the Cubs did much but just tell Arrieta to throw his best stuff.