CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Leury can’t hit RHP. Maybe so but Zobrist is toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 8 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Leury can’t hit RHP. Yes, but the poster I was responding to was suggesting to bring Zobrist in to play second until Madrigal arrives, platoon with Mazara against “LHP”, and be a super utility guy.   Despite Leury not being optimal against RHP, he is more than an adequate in-house solution to fulfill all three objectives.  I would much rather go with him than try and squeeze out the last of the toothpaste left in a 39 year-old Ben Zobrist.  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 41 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said: Yes, but the poster I was responding to was suggesting to bring Zobrist in to play second until Madrigal arrives, platoon with Mazara against “LHP”, and be a super utility guy.   Despite Leury not being optimal against RHP, he is more than an adequate in-house solution to fulfill all three objectives.  I would much rather go with him than try and squeeze out the last of the toothpaste left in a 39 year-old Ben Zobrist.  Zobrist was 23% better than a league average hitter in 2018, but struggled last year as he dealt with marital issues.  I think it remains to be seen how much he has left in the tank, but the cost to find out should be minuscule enough to gamble on the upside. As for Leury, his favorable splits against LHP (113 wRC+) is based on a SSS (280 PAs) and involves an unsustainable BABIP (.388).  I worry his production against LHP may be just a fluke and if it regresses he suddenly isn’t a good platoon partner for Mazara and a well below average hitter in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KopechThrowsHeat Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Zobrist was 23% better than a league average hitter in 2018, but struggled last year as he dealt with marital issues.  I think it remains to be seen how much he has left in the tank, but the cost to find out should be minuscule enough to gamble on the upside. As for Leury, his favorable splits against LHP (113 wRC+) is based on a SSS (280 PAs) and involves an unsustainable BABIP (.388).  I worry his production against LHP may be just a fluke and if it regresses he suddenly isn’t a good platoon partner for Mazara and a well below average hitter in general. Is Zobrist even going to play next year? I don’t really want anything to do with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, KopechThrowsHeat said: Is Zobrist even going to play next year? I don’t really want anything to do with him No idea.  But if he’s willing to, I’d happily give him a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 34 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: No idea.  But if he’s willing to, I’d happily give him a shot. He could be toast but due to his performance last year and his age, he could be signed for next to nothing for a season.  I wouldn’t mind adding him when our other options to fill those right-handed at bats at 2B and in RF are Leury and Engel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Imagine just signing Castellanos or Ozuna so you didn't have a platoon featuring Adam Engle or Leury. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: Imagine just signing Castellanos or Ozuna so you didn't have a platoon featuring Adam Engle or Leury. Imagine committing to the worst OF defense in the league for the duration of their contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Zobrist was 23% better than a league average hitter in 2018, but struggled last year as he dealt with marital issues.  I think it remains to be seen how much he has left in the tank, but the cost to find out should be minuscule enough to gamble on the upside. As for Leury, his favorable splits against LHP (113 wRC+) is based on a SSS (280 PAs) and involves an unsustainable BABIP (.388).  I worry his production against LHP may be just a fluke and if it regresses he suddenly isn’t a good platoon partner for Mazara and a well below average hitter in general. I think when you talk about Zobrist it's difficult to use 2018 numbers simply because of his age. You just cant ignore his 2019 despite the marital problem because he is in his late 30's and any bad year can be the end. Leury has been remarkably consistent the last 3 years against LH pitching always batting higher than .300 and decent OBP. I'm sure you can look up his stats easily from 2017-2019. I'll take his 10 yr. age difference and consistency over Zobrist despite the lack of power and walks. His BA carries his OBP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Imagine committing to the worst OF defense in the league for the duration of their contract. Mazara is bad at defense and bad at hitting. The move doesn't make any sense regardless of how you want to split it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, BackDoorBreach said: Mazara is bad at defense and bad at hitting. The move doesn't make any sense regardless of how you want to split it. Mazara is a slightly below average RF (not awful), he mashes RHP, and adds much need balance to the lineup. He's not perfect, but he is also a 1 year stopgap. Maybe he blows up and he sticks around for 2 years, but if he's the same Mazara he's always been in 2020, we'll have a new RF in 2021.  Castellanos or Ozuna isn't happening, man. They don't make any sense at this point.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 23 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I think when you talk about Zobrist it's difficult to use 2018 numbers simply because of his age. You just cant ignore his 2019 despite the marital problem because he is in his late 30's and any bad year can be the end. Leury has been remarkably consistent the last 3 years against LH pitching always batting higher than .300 and decent OBP. I'm sure you can look up his stats easily from 2017-2019. I'll take his 10 yr. age difference and consistency over Zobrist despite the lack of power and walks. His BA carries his OBP. I’m not suggesting that we get rid of Leury, I’m proposing adding Zobrist on the cheap as an additional bench piece.  If Zobrist is even 85% of his 2018 form, he’s better suited for the role I’ve been discussing (interim 2B / platoon RF once Madrigal is up).  If he doesn’t work out, then release him in a couple months and cal up Engel, Mendick, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOFHurt35 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 39 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: Imagine just signing Castellanos or Ozuna so you didn't have a platoon featuring Adam Engle or Leury. Imagine not, since both play Soccer for Defense.  A platoon would be happening even for late inning defense featuring Engle or Garcia. Like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullythered Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: Mazara is bad at defense and bad at hitting. The move doesn't make any sense regardless of how you want to split it. Come on, it's way more nuanced a move than that. Mazara is a young player with standout tools who has, to this point been only a replace-level player, but a lot of people around the league think there is at least a small chance that a change of scenery could lead to a breakout season for him. At best, this happens and the Sox extend the team option at low cost. At worst, he is the "meh" player he has been to this point, but having your worst hitter, and a guy who will probably hit around 8th in the lineup, be a 96 OPS+ hitter is not gonna sink the ship.   When you look at the move in the overall context of all the moves they made this offseason, it makes sense to take a flier on a guy you think could realize his potential here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: Mazara is bad at defense and bad at hitting. The move doesn't make any sense regardless of how you want to split it. I wasn’t a huge fan of the Mazara addition, but here is how they each did against RHP last year: Mazara: 110 wRC+ Castellanos: 106 wRC+ Yes, Nick destroys LHP and wouldn’t require a platoon mate, but ~75% they are about the same caliber of hitter.  With the right platoon partner, I think we can get a little less production (when factoring in defense) for a fraction of the cost.  I do like Castellanos and think there’s room for growth but he definitely isn’t a perfect fit if he required a four year deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 4 minutes ago, sullythered said: Come on, it's way more nuanced a move than that. Mazara is a young player with standout tools who has, to this point been only a replace-level player, but a lot of people around the league think there is at least a small chance that a change of scenery could lead to a breakout season for him. At best, this happens and the Sox extend the team option at low cost. At worst, he is the "meh" player he has been to this point, but having your worst hitter, and a guy who will probably hit around 8th in the lineup, be a 96 OPS+ hitter is not gonna sink the ship.   When you look at the move in the overall context of all the moves they made this offseason, it makes sense to take a flier on a guy you think could realize his potential here. Mazara reminds me quite a bit of Avisail Garcia in terms of the pedigree and talent is there, he just does not seem to put it all together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, sullythered said: Come on, it's way more nuanced a move than that. Mazara is a young player with standout tools who has, to this point been only a replace-level player, but a lot of people around the league think there is at least a small chance that a change of scenery could lead to a breakout season for him. At best, this happens and the Sox extend the team option at low cost. At worst, he is the "meh" player he has been to this point, but having your worst hitter, and a guy who will probably hit around 8th in the lineup, be a 96 OPS+ hitter is not gonna sink the ship.   When you look at the move in the overall context of all the moves they made this offseason, it makes sense to take a flier on a guy you think could realize his potential here. I am trending toward this being an educated, well-informed gamble on a 24 yoa guy with good upside. He will not be worse than average against righties and this will not end up a disaster. He also makes plays in the field but I assume his range is a bit low and plodding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, steveno89 said: Mazara reminds me quite a bit of Avisail Garcia in terms of the pedigree and talent is there, he just does not seem to put it all together Mazara has about 5x more pedigree and alleged talent than Avi ever had. Avi was a fringe top 100 guy according to one publication and unranked by anyone else. Mazara was a universal top 20 guy and rated as high as #5. Edited January 2, 2020 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Hunter Pence is still out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 25 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I wasn’t a huge fan of the Mazara addition, but here is how they each did against RHP last year: Mazara: 110 wRC+ Castellanos: 106 wRC+ Yes, Nick destroys LHP and wouldn’t require a platoon mate, but ~75% they are about the same caliber of hitter.  With the right platoon partner, I think we can get a little less production (when factoring in defense) for a fraction of the cost.  I do like Castellanos and think there’s room for growth but he definitely isn’t a perfect fit if he required a four year deal. Castellanos has the 3rd most XBHs in baseball the last 3 years and has increasingly good peripherals over the same period. Mazara has been the same replacement level player for 4 years and was/is a legitimate non-tender candidate. If you are going to aquire a player via trade when you are about to compete, he should at least be good at 1 facet of the game. The move isn't going to "blowup" because the rest of the lineup is so strong. That doesn't make this a good move because of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: The move isn't going to "blowup" because the rest of the lineup is so strong. That doesn't make this a good move because of that. It does though. Nick Castellanos is not worth committing 4 years too. Not even close. Edited January 2, 2020 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 27 minutes ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said: Hunter Pence is still out there. I am guessing Pillar gets snapped up because he can still play CF. Â I wonder if Hahn slow plays the bench market and grabs Pence or Zobrist closer to the start of spring training for next to nothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, mqr said: It does though. Nick Castellanos is not worth committing 4 years too. Not even close. By what metric aside from your opinion? Because by fWAR which literally almost everyone on this site goes by he is? He is the best RF available that is obtainable over at least the next 2 years unless you plan on getting Pederson that will surely have plenty of suitors.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: By what metric aside from your opinion? Because by fWAR which literally almost everyone on this site goes by he is? He is the best RF available that is obtainable over at least the next 2 years unless you plan on getting Pederson that will surely have plenty of suitors.   Well first, he's only a RF in title. He should not be a RF. He's a DH. We already have one of those playing first base, left field and eventually catcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: By what metric aside from your opinion? Because by fWAR which literally almost everyone on this site goes by he is? He is the best RF available that is obtainable over at least the next 2 years unless you plan on getting Pederson that will surely have plenty of suitors. I don't understand how this is so hard for you to process. Over the last two seasons, per fWAR, Nick Castellanos has been THE WORST outfield defender in the ENTIRE game. Last season alone, Castellanos was -12.6 dfWAR and Eloy was -11 dfWAR. That is the worst and the ~10th worst outfield defenders in the game.  Committing to that situation long term is insane. Especially with our young pitching staff. Please try to understand that.  Edited January 2, 2020 by ChiSox59 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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