Jack Parkman Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) Whyy does everyone want Keuchel? He sucks. Edited December 11, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Keuchel had 0.8 WAR last year in 112.2 IP. If you're going to b**** about Mazara, you have to b**** about Keuchel. But yeah, spend $20M on a pitcher worth less than 1.5 fWAR over 190 innings. dude stop. One...obviously that is half a year. Two - players have historically struggled on these mid year signings. He has a history above 1 WAR. And WAR isn't symmetrical. Nova was one of the worst pitchers in baseball in the first half and quite good in the second, extrapolating is ridiculous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisebri224 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 He’s good he walks in two years because he’s too expensive. If he sucks we wasted 2 years. Yep. Sox win win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Just now, The Sir said: TOR starter? Whatever. Gio could be that already, Kopech and Cease could become that. Behind them, we have some iffy ones with the always injured Rodon, the inconsistent Lopez, and the still not here and oft injured Dunning. Sign Keuchel so that behind our big three we have a proven veteran who can mentor the young ones and give us a solid chance to win every time he pitches. Totally get that he’s not the ace from a few years ago, and that’s fine. To be fair, Wheeler has never been an ace. “Could be...” ”We have some iffy ones with the always injured Rodon...” ”The inconsistent Lopez...” “Oft-injured Dunning...” Good god man, read the crap you are trying to sling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, The Sir said: TOR starter? Whatever. Gio could be that already, Kopech and Cease could become that. Behind them, we have some iffy ones with the always injured Rodon, the inconsistent Lopez, and the still not here and oft injured Dunning. Sign Keuchel so that behind our big three we have a proven veteran who can mentor the young ones and give us a solid chance to win every time he pitches. Totally get that he’s not the ace from a few years ago, and that’s fine. To be fair, Wheeler has never been an ace. Wheeler has been really good the last 2 years, and many feel he's poised to take it a step further. That said, I'm not saying the Sox can't have a great staff. Gio, Cease and Kopech all have TOR potential. It's just that if you added a top 2 guy in to mix with them, the potential for the rotation would of been off the charts. Finally - Keuchel is likely to get a lot more than 'innings eater' money. Edited December 11, 2019 by Sarava 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Just now, bmags said: dude stop. One...obviously that is half a year. He'll just ignore that like he usually does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 34 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: We already know Mazara’s production — less than 1 WAR in each year of his career. The Sox are praying that Mazara somehow booms from his consistent mediocrity for 4 years straight. The Sox supposedly have money to spend and could have and should have done better than this. We shouldn’t have to hope for these flier-type players to pan out. Spend some freaking money. I agree to a point. BUT YOU KNOW THEY AINT GONNA SPEND! The same dead horse gets beat every year. Is it sad fuck yeah. But it is what it is until reinsdorf is gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Wisebri224 said: He’s good he walks in two years because he’s too expensive. If he sucks we wasted 2 years. Yep. Sox win win He walks in two years because of FA and Boras... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sir Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Man, the Sox front office must love fans like you. Happy with table scraps. I want to build a complete team with limited weaknesses. That’s what the 2005 team was. There won’t be an HOFer from that team besides Frank who had little impact that year. Not much star power, but there was never an easy inning for an opposing pitcher, and there was never a day where opposing fans could lick their lips in anticipation of some sort of offensive blowout. We were solid, top to bottom. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 1 minute ago, bmags said: dude stop. One...obviously that is half a year. Two - players have historically struggled on these mid year signings. He has a history above 1 WAR. And WAR isn't symmetrical. Nova was one of the worst pitchers in baseball in the first half and quite good in the second, extrapolating is ridiculous. While I know that to be true, how else can I judge what his performance would have been over a full season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 1 hour ago, bmags said: Disappointed to wake up to this. On one side, there are long tails to this move, he could net out to be a significant bat offensively, though his defense may always limit that effect to around 3 WAR. And last offseason it was basically decided that the white sox would still significantly rely on luck, anyway, so if our luck pays out this is another iron in the fire. But all things considered, I thought we were doing this rebuild to make a team better than the best teams in baseball. And it's just really hard at this point to see the white sox with ambitions outside of competing for a division title. That's most disappointing to me,, I thought they would build a large amount of budget to add a significant FA piece. But I don't see a single guy they signed that we couldn't have believed they couldn't have gotten in previous iterations of the sox. It sucks, but it doesn't suck just for Mazara. It really does seem like he has an approach problem, and we just saw two great examples of updating an approach (or leaning into one) to maximize results for great success in uber-talented guys in moncada/TA. I keep mentioning Soler, but Soler! His exit velocity was also average. He also had muted production. Then he found a way to match his strength with an approach and absolutely crushes the ball on the regular and it started at age 25. And also he's terrible defensively so its a great match. You should be ecstatic about this move bmags. This is the front office saying they did not want to commit large sums of money to Ozuna or Castellanos and is buying some time until next offseason for a run at Betts, Springer, Pederson, etc. I am 100% ok with that logic, but wish they acquired a stop-gap with far more certainty than Mazara. After missing out on Wheeler and now going with a highly question but talented player in RF, we quickly seem to be punting on the 2020 season and creating a three year window. Maybe they surprise with far more impactful pitching additions than I’m currently expecting or possibly extend the window with extensions with Yoan & Giolito, but right now the plan seems very much disjointed and is putting a ton of pressure on us to land an impact RF next offseason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 I really don't mind the trade. It's not a great addition, but the guy has a chance to hit a lot of HRs in a hitter-friendly park. He's controlled through the next two years, but if he's no good in 2020, the Sox can non-tender him. This move, however, makes more sense if they're going to spend on pitching. There are still a few "tier 2" guys out there and plenty of inning eating guys. Only time will tell now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, bmags said: dude stop. One...obviously that is half a year. Two - players have historically struggled on these mid year signings. He has a history above 1 WAR. And WAR isn't symmetrical. Nova was one of the worst pitchers in baseball in the first half and quite good in the second, extrapolating is ridiculous. I think that he's likely to be a <2 WAR pitcher going forward. That being said Steamer/ZiPS has him at 2.6/2.7 next year. I think that is incredibly generous. Edited December 11, 2019 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 31 minutes ago, Sarava said: It's not about how cheap we got him. I don't think many (if any) care about losing Steele Walker. It's about them once again choosing the cheap route to fill a hole, as opposed to spending money on an impact player. And there are still a couple impact players out there that could of been signed to play RF. This is the same old White Sox way of doing business, which has led to this long ass playoff drought that we're in. Dude I agree 100%. But shouldn't we be used to this? After last year I expect nothing from the sox until reinsdorf is gone. I love the it gets complicated excuse from Hahn lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Wow....woke up to the garbage happening already. If this is the only move we make this organization a in a lot of trouble. Nothing like kicking the can down the road another season or two because you are afraid to spend money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, HahnsKiddieTable said: Wow....woke up to the garbage happening already. If this is the only move we make this organization a in a lot of trouble. Nothing like kicking the can down the road another season or two because you are afraid to spend money. Problem is, they were never going to spend the Cole/Strasburg money and Wheeler was never coming here. What else could they do really? There's really nothing they can do from this point. It's better to keep the payroll flexibility than to waste it on trash. See if you can get someone next winter. Edited December 11, 2019 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You should be ecstatic about this move bmags. This is the front office saying they did not want to commit large sums of money to Ozuna or Castellanos and is buying some time until next offseason for a run at Betts, Springer, Pederson, etc. I am 100% ok with that logic, but wish they acquired a stop-gap with far more certainty than Mazara. After missing out on Wheeler and now going with a highly question but talented player in RF, we quickly seem to be punting on the 2020 season and creating a three year window. Maybe they surprise with far more impactful pitching additions than I’m currently expecting or possibly extend the window with extensions with Yoan & Giolito, but right now the plan seems very much disjointed and is putting a ton of pressure on us to land an impact RF next offseason. Well there is huge variance to these names (bolded). I'd be more excited if the sox this offseason didn't so willingly take themselves off of the running for the top names. But obviously Betts and Springer would be ideal moving forward because aside from plus offense they are great defensively. Longterm I don't want to compromise on defense or offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You should be ecstatic about this move bmags. This is the front office saying they did not want to commit large sums of money to Ozuna or Castellanos and is buying some time until next offseason for a run at Betts, Springer, Pederson, etc. I am 100% ok with that logic, but wish they acquired a stop-gap with far more certainty than Mazara. After missing out on Wheeler and now going with a highly question but talented player in RF, we quickly seem to be punting on the 2020 season and creating a three year window. Maybe they surprise with far more impactful pitching additions than I’m currently expecting or possibly extend the window with extensions with Yoan & Giolito, but right now the plan seems very much disjointed and is putting a ton of pressure on us to land an impact RF next offseason. Why do we think the Mazara move says this at all? Mazara is under control for two years. Betts, Springer, and Pederson are free agents after next season. Betts is a pipe dream and Springer is likely as well. I think this move is more of a statement that the Sox really like Mazara and think he will pan out. I don’t think it in any way indicates that the Sox are waiting for a better target next offseason. Edited December 11, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sir Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, Wisebri224 said: He’s good he walks in two years because he’s too expensive. If he sucks we wasted 2 years. Yep. Sox win win Such a bad argument. If he’s good, then we got a good player for two years. Period. This is the same logic that demands we keep Robert down for two weeks in April so that we can control him through 2026. I get having some thought to the future, but having Robert that year doesn’t mean as much if we’ve lost Moncada, Gio, Anderson, etc, and done nothing to sustain our success with good drafting and development. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I think that he's likely to be a <2 WAR pitcher going forward. That being said Steamer/ZiPS has him at 2.6/2.7 next year. I think that is incredibly generous. Which is right around his career average yet you are claiming his 0.8 WAR season last year in 112 innings as gospel. Makes sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smellysox Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: They have to add at least one scrap heap pitcher, but the odds on anyone but Keuchel are slim and none at this point. We’ve gone from Wheeler and Castellanos/Ozuna (maybe even two hitters) to maybe Keuchel (at best, a poor man’s Buehrle) and Mazara, of course people are going to be pissed off...especially if they refuse to spend money on decent starting pitching and trade Vaughn, Madrigal or Lopez instead. Well Soxfest should be a blast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cashman said: A lot of you are getting upset over this, and I am not sure I understand. The Sox just gave up a guy, with the upside of maybe a 4th OF, for a kid that will give you 20ish HRs, and about 70 RBI in RF. And they are very close in age as well. I just see upside with this guy, and really not giving away the farm. Walker could have been used for all sorts of things and the issue here isn’t the price we paid for Mazara but what it represents. 20 HRs from a corner OF is not good in the juiced ball era and RBIs are pretty much a meaningless stat. The reality is we just settled on a guy who was about 10% better than league average against RHP (despite a BABIP 35 points higher than his career average) to be the strong side of a RF platoon. This same player offers negative value in the field and on the bases. He’s also one of the worst hitters in all of baseball against LHP. As much as people think platoons work our perfectly, he will face some lefties and that will bring down his overall offensive numbers. He needs to take a significant leap forward next year or won’t be a very useful player for us. Edited December 11, 2019 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Just now, The Sir said: Such a bad argument. If he’s good, then we got a good player for two years. Period. This is the same logic that demands we keep Robert down for two weeks in April so that we can control him through 2026. I get having some thought to the future, but having Robert that year doesn’t mean as much if we’ve lost Moncada, Gio, Anderson, etc, and done nothing to sustain our success with good drafting and development. I agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Why do we think the Mazara move says this at all? Mazara is under control for two years. Betts, Springer, and Pederson are free agents after next season. Betts is a pipe dream and Springer is likely as well. I think this move is more of a statement that the Sox really like Mazara and think he will pan out. I don’t think it in any way indicates that the Sox are waiting for a better target next offseason. Speaking of which, who is Mazara's agency? Not sure if anyone said it on here yet. Maybe just in case he actually figures it out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, SoxAce said: Speaking of which, who is Mazara's agency? Not sure if anyone said it on here yet. Maybe just in case he actually figures it out... Guess who? His name begins with Scott... Edited December 11, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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