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Sox acquire Nomar Mazara for Steele Walker

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I watched several Cub games. Castellanos was slow and wasn't able to track down every ball hit in the gap, but he didn't make one error for the Cubs. Outside if that, he was a spark plug on offense that won several games for them.

Platooning is not an ideal strategy. There aren't enough outfielders on the roster to platoon every time the opposing team makes a pitching change.  Eventually, Mazara will have to face LH pitchers in key situations. Trying ti insulate him from facing LH pitchers might prove to be counterproductive.

So I get the platoon strategy now that we have Mazara but I just don't think it will be sustainable for very long. In fact, I would be in favor of keeping him in the line-up against LH starters and have him work with the new hitting coach on a different approach. If he doesn't get better and Steele Walker does, well the trade will be  regrettable.

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16 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don't understand how this is so hard for you to process.  Over the last two seasons, per fWAR, Nick Castellanos has been THE WORST outfield defender in the ENTIRE game.  Last season alone, Castellanos was -12.6 dfWAR and Eloy was -11 dfWAR.  That is the worst and the ~10th worst outfield defenders in the game.  

Committing to that situation long term is insane.  Especially with our young pitching staff.  Please try to understand that.  

And Mazara was -8.1dfWAR and does not hit nearly well enough or do anything else well enough to make up for that.  That is the point I am making.  It is a shitty trade because he does NOTHING well.  Being 24 is not a skillset.  Castellanos has put up 5.8 fWAR over the last 2 years and 1.5 years of that was playing in a giant ass field that sapped his HRs and arguably hurt his defensive value since he doesn't have good range. Which is why his dfWAR improved a lot his second year in the position.

 Mazara has played in a bandbox launching pad for 4 years and sucks.  This isn't even necessarily about Castellanos, it's about us not actually improving RF vs the rest of the league and now have to see a platoon with Leury Garcia and Adam fucking Engle when we are supposed to be competing.  It's not a win now move at all, that is a rebuilding team move to take a flier on a guy that has been ass for 4 years and "hoping" for a breakout even though NOTHING in his numbers tell you that is going to happen.

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Just now, BackDoorBreach said:

And Mazara was -8.1dfWAR and does not hit nearly well enough or do anything else well enough to make up for that.  That is the point I am making.  It is a shitty trade because he does NOTHING well.  Being 24 is not a skillset.  Castellanos has put up 5.8 fWAR over the last 2 years and 1.5 years of that was playing in a giant ass field that sapped his HRs and arguably hurt his defensive value since he doesn't have good range. Which is why his dfWAR improved a lot his second year in the position.

 Mazara has played in a bandbox launching pad for 4 years and sucks.  This isn't even necessarily about Castellanos, it's about us not actually improving RF vs the rest of the league and now have to see a platoon with Leury Garcia and Adam fucking Engle when we are supposed to be competing.  It's not a win now move at all, that is a rebuilding team move to take a flier on a guy that has been ass for 4 years and "hoping" for a breakout even though NOTHING in his numbers tell you that is going to happen.

Mazara is a one year stop gap making like $5M.  Castellanos, at a bare minimum, is going to cost like 4/$65M.  That is the difference, and its a big one.  

Keep RF open for a big splash next offseason.  Don't commit to dogshit defense for the majority of our window.  Its really quite simple.  

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Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Mazara is a one year stop gap making like $5M.  Castellanos, at a bare minimum, is going to cost like 4/$65M.  That is the difference, and its a big one.  

Keep RF open for a big splash next offseason.  Don't commit to dogshit defense for the majority of our window.  Its really quite simple.  

But therein lies the problem.  They 100% aren't giving Mookie Betts 380 million dollars.

So now you have Joc Pederson who is another platoon bat and Springer who is going to cost 100 million dollars in his 30's and I'm gambling will get extended by the Astros anyways.

Castellanos is going to get 16-18 over 4 years, that is in no way crushing for this team and would be easily movable if he maintains 2.5-3 WAR which every indication and metric seems to support.  

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Just now, BackDoorBreach said:

But therein lies the problem.  They 100% aren't giving Mookie Betts 380 million dollars.

So now you have Joc Pederson who is another platoon bat and Springer who is going to cost 100 million dollars in his 30's and I'm gambling will get extended by the Astros anyways.

Castellanos is going to get 16-18 over 4 years, that is in no way crushing for this team and would be easily movable if he maintains 2.5-3 WAR which every indication and metric seems to support.  

You're right, they probably won't sign Mookie Betts or Springer.  But I sure as shit am not removing all doubt a year in advance by handing the single worst defensive OF in the game a 4 year contract.  

Its not happening man.  Time to move on.  

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3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

You're right, they probably won't sign Mookie Betts or Springer.  But I sure as shit am not removing all doubt a year in advance by handing the single worst defensive OF in the game a 4 year contract.  

Its not happening man.  Time to move on.  

I'm dying on this hill.

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4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

You're right, they probably won't sign Mookie Betts or Springer.  But I sure as shit am not removing all doubt a year in advance by handing the single worst defensive OF in the game a 4 year contract.  

Its not happening man.  Time to move on.  

I'll come right out and say it now. The White Sox absolutely are not signing Betts, and highly unlikely to pay Springer too. 

If we are going to spend big money next offseason it would be on pitching. 

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Just now, steveno89 said:

I'll come right out and say it now. The White Sox absolutely are not signing Betts, and highly unlikely to pay Springer too. 

If we are going to spend big money next offseason it would be on pitching. 

I mean...you're probably right, as I just said.  But they only have ~$65M committed to next 2021 payroll.  Add in $15-17M for arb1 raises for Moncada, Giolito. Fry and Lopez, and another $8M or so for Rodon and your at like $90M.  They'll have plenty of room to sign Betts or Springer if they want to.  There is also guys like Joc, Peralta and Brantley who will make some sense on shorter cheaper deals - even if Adolfo blows up in 2020, they could still sign one of those guys.  

I don't really think we'll be in the market for SP again next offseason, and if we are, that is not a good sign.  

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6 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I'll come right out and say it now. The White Sox absolutely are not signing Betts, and highly unlikely to pay Springer too. 

If we are going to spend big money next offseason it would be on pitching. 

You think Jerry Reinsdorf is going to "spend big money" on pitching?  Our Jerry Reinsdorf?

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Call me crazy but I think a large part of the reason they went with a stopgap in RF is because they plan on being aggressive with next year’s class. Maybe it’s just Joc, but Betts checks all the boxes of someone the Sox could actually sign. He only cares about money (won’t be pulling a Wheeler), is not a Boras guy, would align well with Sox charities, marketable, etc.

 

If they approach it the way they attacked Grandal and Wheeler, they may have a shot.

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1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

Call me crazy but I think a large part of the reason they went with a stopgap in RF is because they plan on being aggressive with next year’s class. Maybe it’s just Joc, but Betts checks all the boxes of someone the Sox could actually sign. He only cares about money (won’t be pulling a Wheeler), is not a Boras guy, would align well with Sox charities, marketable, etc.

 

If they approach it the way they attacked Grandal and Wheeler, they may have a shot.

I agree with this. I would have never thought the Sox had a chance of signing Betts before this offseason started, but they proved that they will spend aggressively on guys they really like (Grandal) and offer the most for a desirable free agent (Wheeler). I’m not saying that the Sox will sign Betts, but I feel more optimistic about the possibility of it happening than I did when this offseason started.

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3 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I agree with this. I would have never thought the Sox had a chance of signing Betts before this offseason started, but they proved that they will spend aggressively on guys they really like (Grandal) and offer the most for a desirable free agent (Wheeler). I’m not saying that the Sox will sign Betts, but I feel more optimistic about the possibility of it happening than I did when this offseason started.

"Former MLB general manager Jim Bowden of The Athletic recently made a player move prediction for every team. Betts was unsurprisingly who he focused on for the Red Sox, making a case for extending their superstar to a 10-year, $370 million deal."

I cannot see the White Sox handing out a 10/$370 contract ever. Betts is not coming here.

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9 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Call me crazy but I think a large part of the reason they went with a stopgap in RF is because they plan on being aggressive with next year’s class. Maybe it’s just Joc, but Betts checks all the boxes of someone the Sox could actually sign. He only cares about money (won’t be pulling a Wheeler), is not a Boras guy, would align well with Sox charities, marketable, etc.

 

If they approach it the way they attacked Grandal and Wheeler, they may have a shot.

It definitely makes sense.  

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There's 0% chance Betts comes to the White Sox. Get that through your heads and make strategy around it. 

 

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My guess is that Betts is staying in Boston on a long term deal for around 300M. He is a generational talent that the Red Sox will not let go. 

I thought and still think the Red Sox will trade Benintendi for the right package ...possibly something like  Mazara , Collins, and a pitching prospect and/or taking on 2/3 of Eovaldi's  contract in a trade deal.

Absent some trade for a legit RFer,  I would sign Castellanos and then trade Mazara at some point. Or come up with another plan to solve the RF problem rather than kicking the can down the road.

 My hope is that Nomar  will hit enough home runs to make us forget about the rest of his game. That is what happened with Castellanos at Wrigley last year. And that should be as instructive as Castellanos defensive fWar.

My guess is that the  Cubs or the Giants  will sign Castellanos.

 

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Even if Mazara is his normal self, it's still a huge upgrade even if he hits .265/.315 /.780 with 20 -25 HR. 

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2 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

But therein lies the problem.  They 100% aren't giving Mookie Betts 380 million dollars.

So now you have Joc Pederson who is another platoon bat and Springer who is going to cost 100 million dollars in his 30's and I'm gambling will get extended by the Astros anyways.

Castellanos is going to get 16-18 over 4 years, that is in no way crushing for this team and would be easily movable if he maintains 2.5-3 WAR which every indication and metric seems to support.  

If a contract at that amount for him was easy to move, he'd be getting multiple offers at that amount now.   Moving him later might force us to eat $4 million or so per year in salary.   Do we really want to eat $16 million in dead money that could be used elsewhere?

 

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3 hours ago, tray said:

I watched several Cub games. Castellanos was slow and wasn't able to track down every ball hit in the gap, but he didn't make one error for the Cubs. Outside if that, he was a spark plug on offense that won several games for them.

Platooning is not an ideal strategy. There aren't enough outfielders on the roster to platoon every time the opposing team makes a pitching change.  Eventually, Mazara will have to face LH pitchers in key situations. Trying ti insulate him from facing LH pitchers might prove to be counterproductive.

So I get the platoon strategy now that we have Mazara but I just don't think it will be sustainable for very long. In fact, I would be in favor of keeping him in the line-up against LH starters and have him work with the new hitting coach on a different approach. If he doesn't get better and Steele Walker does, well the trade will be  regrettable.

If Mazara works out the Socks could have three studs in the OF, one roaming and two stumbling. I believe he will prove his worth. 

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38 minutes ago, pcq said:

If Mazara works out the Socks could have three studs in the OF, one roaming and two stumbling. I believe he will prove his worth. 

Mazara is a shrewd gamble for the White Sox to take because one of three outcomes will happen:

1) Mazara takes a developmental step and becomes a quality regular at RF. Sox control him through 2021.

2) Mazara is the same guy he has been, Sox look to upgrade the position via trade or FA next offseason. This is likely. 

3) Mazara is awful, Sox cut bait

He will not have much pressure on him to perform in the bottom of the order, and there is upside remaining if the change of scenery helps him. 

 

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BP had Mazara the #5 prospect 4 years ago. Eloy was #3  a year ago,  Robert certainly will be top 5 when the 2020 rankings are out. What other team will feature an OF that can say that?

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24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

BP had Mazara the #5 prospect 4 years ago. Eloy was #3  a year ago,  Robert certainly will be top 5 when the 2020 rankings are out. What other team will feature an OF that can say that?

Braves eventually? 

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5 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I'm dying on this hill.

Adios.

Getting so worked up over the 8th hitter, who is a huge upgrade, will likely hit 20 HRs and 25 2Bs and still be somewhat productive is an effort in futility.

Edited by turnin' two
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4 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Even if Mazara is his normal self, it's still a huge upgrade even if he hits .265/.315 /.780 with 20 -25 HR. 

Truth.

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8 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I wasn’t a huge fan of the Mazara addition, but here is how they each did against RHP last year:

  • Mazara: 110 wRC+
  • Castellanos: 106 wRC+ 

Yes, Nick destroys LHP and wouldn’t require a platoon mate, but ~75% they are about the same caliber of hitter.  With the right platoon partner, I think we can get a little less production (when factoring in defense) for a fraction of the cost.  I do like Castellanos and think there’s room for growth but he definitely isn’t a perfect fit if he required a four year deal.

Pence would be a cost effective platoon partner with Mazara.  Would probably be a mentor to Mazara, Robert and Eloy.

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