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Sox and Sawks to see if the Price is Right

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Just now, GreenSox said:

They shouldn't. And if good prospects are required, they shouldn't make the trade.
He's an aging pitcher who wasn't anything special last year and who has pitched 1/2 a season in 2 of the last 3 years.  That's the price to pay

Most prospects don't pan out. But most GMs understand which ones are real prospects with potential and which are limited. Unfortunately, the Sox GM is not one of the "most" and you can't take the chance with him; and I suspect he knows that.

Again with attacking the organization for the one thing theyve actually been good at recently - high profile trades.

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13 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I would not trade six controlled seasons of Vaughn for three seasons of Benintendi arbitration control. 

Just pay a guy like Ozuna for only money, WTF 

I agree, but the Sox value less years if they have to pay money. 3yrs vs whatever Ozuna commands.

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6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Again with attacking the organization for the one thing theyve actually been good at recently - high profile trades.

Just because they've excelled there in the past, doesn't mean they still won't make a shitty one out of desperation.

Edited by bachy

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26 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Again with attacking the organization for the one thing theyve actually been good at recently - high profile trades.

Hahn has  been consistently terrible at trading for veterans and at trading away prospects.  His Shields trade kneecapped this organization.

Big difference between that and getting good prospects for high-end players in their prime, at low cost, like he did with Sale, Eaton and Quintana.  And beyond those 3, he didn't accomplish much at all in his dispersal.  Most secondary trades were giveaways for Rule 5 guys.

Edited by GreenSox

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5 minutes ago, Soxnfins said:

Gammons has been off his rocker for years anyways. Nothing to see here

Cashing in on Vaughn and Madrigal and turning them into Price and Benintendi would probably kill off half this place as fans.

You'd be turning about 100 million in surplus projected value over the next 3 years into 0-30 million depending on how much cash Boston ships.  

Yikes. 

Edited by chitownsportsfan

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1 minute ago, GreenSox said:

Hahn has  been consistently terrible at trading for veterans and at trading away prospects.  His Shields trade kneecapped this organization.

Big difference between that and getting good prospects for high-end players in their prime, at low cost, like he did with Sale, Eaton and Quintana.  And beyond those 3, he didn't accomplish much at all in his dispersal.

My lord, the shields bs again. 

Hahn has traded away plenty of prospects. One lotto ticket worked against him. This narrative is so tiring.

Semien was a big leaguer when he was traded and frankly, no one has any idea what he would have become here. 

I've said this about 1000 times, but friedman traded Yordan Alvarez for Josh Fields. Does that mean Friedman doesnt know how to trade?

Everyone gets burned once in a while if you're active enough in the trade market..

Its not easy to trade three high valued assets and win every single trade; regardless of how little credit you want to give him for those moves. 

I dont worry about hahn getting fleeced in a trade one bit. 

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1 hour ago, bachy said:

Let's look at the track records and see which is more likey:

A) Peter Gammons, who has always had great ties with Boston, is simply mistaken

B) The White Sox front office, which has made one questionable decision after another, who have also shown an ineptitude in evaluating their own prospects, are seriously considering this.

Because I know you're implying Tatis, and likely Semien...

Tatis was a lotto ticket that hit who hadn't played a game for the Sox and wasn't on any Top 100 list. Semien didn't have the prospect pedigree of Vaughn or Madrigal, and just had a season with a .230 average with Anderson on the way.

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2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Cashing in on Vaughn and Madrigal and turning them into Price and Benintendi would probably kill off half this place as fans.

You'd be turning about 100 million in surplus projected value over the next 3 years into 0-30 million depending on how much cash Boston ships.  

Yikes. 

I think many would be done until JR sold and/or KW and Hahn were jettisoned.  But it would be mostly about the Reinsdorfs, especially if the Bulls also continue on their current trajectory.

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Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

My lord, the shields bs again. 

Hahn has traded away plenty of prospects. One lotto ticket worked against him. This narrative is so tiring.

Semien was a big leaguer when he was traded and frankly, no one has any idea what he would have become here. 

I've said this about 1000 times, but friedman traded Yordan Alvarez for Josh Fields. Does that mean Friedman doesnt know how to trade?

Everyone gets burned once in a while if you're active enough in the trade market..

Its not easy to trade three high valued assets and win every single trade; regardless of how little credit you want to give him for those moves. 

I dont worry about hahn getting fleeced in a trade one bit. 

I worry more about their big league evaluations, for which Shields was a catastrophic failure. The Tatis thing was just bad luck.

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1 minute ago, Quin said:

Because I know you're implying Tatis, and likely Semien...

Tatis was a lotto ticket that hit who hadn't played a game for the Sox and wasn't on any Top 100 list. Semien didn't have the prospect pedigree of Vaughn or Madrigal, and just had a season with a .230 average with Anderson on the way.

Except we had him playing more third and second...

We haven’t successfully identified position players on other teams that turned into studs since Quentin and Eaton.  The other two during the last decade have been Alexei and Abreu...unless you want to include Narvaez as well.   Not much for 12 years of scouting internationally and the rest of MLB.

Edited by caulfield12

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How hahn managed the Quintana market, played the patient waiting game, and then got max value DESPITE a down year for Q was by far the most impressive part of hahns tenure as GM (which isnt exactly full of glowing endorsements).

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3 minutes ago, fathom said:

I worry more about their big league evaluations, for which Shields was a catastrophic failure. The Tatis thing was just bad luck.

Yes, I share your concerns here. I said earlier my biggest fear with this team is their MLB scouting and evaluations. It's the one thing this team has given us no reason to trust in.

This organization has come a long way in the minor league evaluation department and I can say I actually trust their ability to evaluate (not develop, yet) MiLB talent. 

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Except we had him playing more third and second...

The sox had a pretty good defensive SS in 2014. They had a 3 WAR player at that position who was an elite defender 

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, I share your concerns here. I said earlier my biggest fear with this team is their MLB scouting and evaluations. It's the one thing this team has given us no reason to trust in.

This organization has come a long way in the minor league evaluation department and I can say I actually trust their ability to evaluate (not develop, yet) MiLB talent. 

You are correct about everything you said in this post except there draft picks have been garbage

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Just now, whitesoxbrad said:

You are correct about everything you said in this post except there draft picks have been garbage

You really cant judge the past 2-3 drafts yet. I know it's hard as a fan, but if the team gets multiple impact players out of the drafts they were a success.

It's funny because the love of trackman data may have limited their pool a bit, but I still wouldn't judge the drafts quite yet. 

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2 minutes ago, hi8is said:

This part of the offseason is always the hardest.

Even more so when you get a big free agent and then go dead silent while players are signing with other teams

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9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The sox had a pretty good defensive SS in 2014. They had a 3 WAR player at that position who was an elite defender 

Alexei was nearing the end of his effectiveness by then...they projected he (Semien) was just going to be a utility player, the end. A more versatile Micah with some pop and less speed.  They also had Saladino, fwiw.

Edited by caulfield12

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Just now, caulfield12 said:

Alexei was nearing the end of his effectiveness by then...they projected he was just going to be a utility player, the end.  A more versatile Micah with some pop and less speed.  They also had Saladino, fwiw.

In 2013 the White Sox drafted Tim Anderson in the 1st round. In 2014 Anderson was fast tracked and finished the year at AA. 

In 2013 Alexei Ramirez was a 2.8 fWAR SS with elite defense. In 2014, Alexei Ramirez was a 3.3 fWAR with + defense. 

The plan was obviously to have Alexei play out the final year of his contract in 2015 and Anderson to be on the 2016 club. 

Anderson had a big 2015 but Alexei fell off the cliff - no one projected 3.3 to go to 0. 

You said they didn't give Semien a shot at SS. I was pointing out they already had a good SS who was a far better defender than Semien.

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3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

In 2013 the White Sox drafted Tim Anderson in the 1st round. In 2014 Anderson was fast tracked and finished the year at AA. 

In 2013 Alexei Ramirez was a 2.8 fWAR SS with elite defense. In 2014, Alexei Ramirez was a 3.3 fWAR with + defense. 

The plan was obviously to have Alexei play out the final year of his contract in 2015 and Anderson to be on the 2016 club. 

Anderson had a big 2015 but Alexei fell off the cliff - no one projected 3.3 to go to 0. 

You said they didn't give Semien a shot at SS. I was pointing out they already had a good SS who was a far better defender than Semien.

Everyone in the world though Alexei was a bit older than his stated age...and was nearing a decline.  And jumping the rawest prospect in baseball in terms of actual playing experience from AA to the majors was never going to be the best path for his development.

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42 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

My lord, the shields bs again. 

Hahn has traded away plenty of prospects. One lotto ticket worked against him. This narrative is so tiring.

Semien was a big leaguer when he was traded and frankly, no one has any idea what he would have become here. 

I've said this about 1000 times, but friedman traded Yordan Alvarez for Josh Fields. Does that mean Friedman doesnt know how to trade?

Everyone gets burned once in a while if you're active enough in the trade market..

Its not easy to trade three high valued assets and win every single trade; regardless of how little credit you want to give him for those moves. 

I dont worry about hahn getting fleeced in a trade one bit. 

Friedman v. Hahn.  It's like deciding between lobster and Filet; a BMW or Lexus.
Let's see -  while  Hahn drafted Vanderbilt's Fulmer, 16 picks later, Friedman picks Walker Buehler. 
The next year, Hahn again picking well ahead of the Dodgers (that happens when you field a bad team) selects Collins and Burdi in round 1; Friedman picks Lux and Will Smith in round 1.
Friedman also got Muncy and Turner for nothing.
You see, Friedman makes up for his gaffes. 
Hahn has to tear the entire team down, such as it was, to recoup the talent from his gaffes. And from the continued moribund drafting, the rebuilt gets stretched.  The FA signings have been 5 bad/1 good.  The trades for vets - other than Soria, which one has been a plus? Were the Sox better off letting Avi and Flowers (to sign Navarro!!) go?
 

Edited by GreenSox
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24 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Friedman v. Hahn.  It's like deciding between lobster and Filet; a BMW or Lexus.
Let's see -  while  Hahn drafted Vanderbilt's Fulmer, 16 picks later, Friedman picks Walker Buehler. 
The next year, Hahn again picking well ahead of the Dodgers (that happens when you field a bad team) selects Collins and Burdi in round 1; Friedman picks Lux and Will Smith in round 1.
Friedman also got Muncy and Turner for nothing.
You see, Friedman makes up for his gaffes. 
Hahn has to tear the entire team down, such as it was, to recoup the talent from his gaffes. And from the continued moribund drafting, the rebuilt gets stretched.  The FA signings have been 5 bad/1 good.  The trades for vets - other than Soria, which one has been a plus? Were the Sox better off letting Avi and Flowers (to sign Navarro!!) go?
 

99% of these things have nothing to do with trade success.

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