Matt Lisle speaks out

[Dominikk85]

19 minutes ago, mqr said:

This is really why all these fangraphs guys keep getting FO jobs, much more than their actual analytical skills. 

Yes but communicating it and dumbing it down is important too. Many of the "gurus" like to throw around technical terms and show how smart they are and that isn't well received.

That being said part of the problem also seems to be that old school coaches fight this and the sox FO does not enough to enforce that.

In the end probably both were guilty. Lisle didn't communicate it well enough but also didn't get enough support by the front office and make data use more optional rather than enforcing this.

The sox will still continue down this road and eventually improve but other teams don't sleep either.

 

[Dick Allen]

I think Ray Ray is right. He's back to coaching softball. If he was a huge loss, another team would have scooped him up.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

42 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

It's depressing to think how far behind teams like the Astros, Yankees, Rays, Dodgers etc the White Sox are at incorporating analytics into player development and coaching.

They are making progress on analytics but I'm not real sure how far behind they are in the whole sports science stuff using hide speed cameras and attaching things to a players body much like the movies do to an actor in order to create a CGI appraisal of a guys movements. I think they are way behind on that stuff. These kind of player development tools are getting to be SOP among the forward thinking teams.

[BackDoorBreach]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They are making progress on analytics but I'm not real sure how far behind they are in the whole sports science stuff using hide speed cameras and attaching things to a players body much like the movies do to an actor in order to create a CGI appraisal of a guys movements. I think they are way behind on that stuff. These kind of player development tools are getting to be SOP among the forward thinking teams.

I can guarentee the Sox are doing nothing with biomechanics.

[GREEDY]

3 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I can guarentee the Sox are doing nothing with biomechanics.

I think Ryan Johansen does alot of biomechanics stuff.  He is currently listed as their asst hitting coordinator.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

I think Ryan Johansen does alot of biomechanics stuff.  He is currently listed as their asst hitting coordinator.  

Yes, and it's his main role within the organization. Remind me not to trust BDB's guarantees!

[TaylorStSox]

10 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I can guarentee the Sox are doing nothing with biomechanics.

"I have absolutely no evidence, but I can 'guarentee' it, because I said so."

[NCsoxfan]

Even Lisle wasn’t worth hiring it reflects poorly that he was hired in the first place. If he was worth hiring it looks bad as they screwed it up. 
 

This organization feels like it’s run out of the back of a garage in Melrose Park.

[ptatc]

54 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Shouldn’t the Sox already know the role and responsibilities they envision for a new position when they hire someone?

By all accounts the Sox are good business people. Some on here say they are too good at business and not good enough about baseball operations. This scenario smells of Matt not being able to teach  the methods in the way he wanted.

[ptatc]

30 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They are making progress on analytics but I'm not real sure how far behind they are in the whole sports science stuff using hide speed cameras and attaching things to a players body much like the movies do to an actor in order to create a CGI appraisal of a guys movements. I think they are way behind on that stuff. These kind of player development tools are getting to be SOP among the forward thinking teams.

I know they've done this. I participated. Used my drone too.

[ptatc]

28 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I can guarentee the Sox are doing nothing with biomechanics.

This is categorically wrong.

[caulfield12]

Less about teaching than institutional culture as long as KW and Cooper feel empowered to run things and set the tone.

Ultimately, we are still more representative of Grady Fuson nearly 20 years ago in Moneyball than on the cutting edge side of things.

[ptatc]

17 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

"I have absolutely no evidence, but I can 'guarentee' it, because I said so."

I know it's wrong because I participated in a pitching motion analysis a few years ago.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, ptatc said:

I know it's wrong because I participated in a pitching motion analysis a few years ago.

All I'm saying or really asking is it widespread at all levels and used routine by people qualified or learned enough in proper pitching and hitting techniques to get players to buy into it . Remember last spring training all we heard about was how the Dodgers had all these high speed cameras and the Sox didn't have any .

[ptatc]

30 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I can guarentee the Sox are doing nothing with biomechanics.

Well let me rephrase this Cooper does have a different way looking at mechanics, which I personally agree with which is why I like him. He doesn't really look at much upper extremity motion other than arm slot. He looks more at lower extremity balance and transfer of motion up to the upper extremity. So the biomechanics in his view, again one I happen to agree with really focus on how to get the proper transfer of power and motion from the legs up to the upper extremity. 

This is why the drafted a guy like Sale. They aren't necessarily worried about specific mechanics or making someone into their version of mechanics but they look at how it all pieces together to transfer the power to the ball.

So I guess in a way you are somewhat correct. They don't try to change everyone's mechanics.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

All I'm saying or really asking is it widespread at all levels and used routine by people qualified or learned enough in proper pitching and hitting techniques to get players to buy into it . Remember last spring training all we heard about was how the Dodgers had all these high speed cameras and the Sox didn't have any .

Those cameras were the next step from biomechanics. It was the ball analyzation of spin rate and such. This is what they didn't have. Different types of cameras.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Well let me rephrase this Cooper does have a different way looking at mechanics, which I personally agree with which is why I like him. He doesn't really look at much upper extremity motion other than arm slot. He looks more at lower extremity balance and transfer of motion up to the upper extremity. So the biomechanics in his view, again one I happen to agree with really focus on how to get the proper transfer of power and motion from the legs up to the upper extremity. 

This is why the drafted a guy like Sale. They aren't necessarily worried about specific mechanics or making someone into their version of mechanics but they look at how it all pieces together to transfer the power to the ball.

So I guess in a way you are somewhat correct. They don't try to change everyone's mechanics.

Stay tall stay back stay closed.  If a pitcher does that they feel they can help him throw consistent strikes.

[BackDoorBreach]

I'm going to just assume the posters here are correct.

Without that confirmation, I would find that incredibly hard to believe they are incorporating biomechanics in development of their players when they still don't even use something as common as advanced analytics reliably.  The Manager last year said as much.  

[Dominikk85]

I'm pretty sure they use some biomechanics. The question is how much of a streamlined process they have for that or whether they just occasionally play around with that.

[pcq]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It actually sounded like the exact opposite; Giolito gave praise to Coopers willingness to evolve and change - something the White Sox fans will say isn't true. 

Gio very clearly said that Coop had bought all in with them, and was helping them.

Look at our country and see change can be very threatening yet some embrace it. A delicate balance must be struck. Respect is also needed. 

[BackDoorBreach]

https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/05/the-limitations-and-usefulness-of-biomechanics-and-motion-capture-for-athletes/

 

This is the article I was thinking about.  I'm fine with being wrong and curious why Fulmer is going to Driveline if we are incorporating this.  But we have multiple people here saying the Sox are in fact doing this.  I have never heard of any of this going on in PD.

[TaylorStSox]

38 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Well let me rephrase this Cooper does have a different way looking at mechanics, which I personally agree with which is why I like him. He doesn't really look at much upper extremity motion other than arm slot. He looks more at lower extremity balance and transfer of motion up to the upper extremity. So the biomechanics in his view, again one I happen to agree with really focus on how to get the proper transfer of power and motion from the legs up to the upper extremity. 

This is why the drafted a guy like Sale. They aren't necessarily worried about specific mechanics or making someone into their version of mechanics but they look at how it all pieces together to transfer the power to the ball.

So I guess in a way you are somewhat correct. They don't try to change everyone's mechanics.

I think this is also why they loved Cease so much. He has crazy balance and separation between his upper and lower half. 

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I'm going to just assume the posters here are correct.

Without that confirmation, I would find that incredibly hard to believe they are incorporating biomechanics in development of their players when they still don't even use something as common as advanced analytics reliably.  The Manager last year said as much.  

As i said I was personally involved with biomechanics and pitching. The advanced analytics with spin rate and such, i have no information on.

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/05/the-limitations-and-usefulness-of-biomechanics-and-motion-capture-for-athletes/

 

This is the article I was thinking about.  I'm fine with being wrong and curious why Fulmer is going to Driveline if we are incorporating this.  But we have multiple people here saying the Sox are in fact doing this.  I have never heard of any of this going on in PD.

As I said, the Sox look at it a little differently. They analyze biomechaincs just like driveline but use a different philosophy of biomechanics. Driveline would never have advocated for drafting Chris Sale.

 

The Driveline process of analyzation is not new. The philosophy of what mechanics are correct to use is what is different.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/05/the-limitations-and-usefulness-of-biomechanics-and-motion-capture-for-athletes/

 

This is the article I was thinking about.  I'm fine with being wrong and curious why Fulmer is going to Driveline if we are incorporating this.  But we have multiple people here saying the Sox are in fact doing this.  I have never heard of any of this going on in PD.

I think theres some big misconception that off-season work means you don't get it from your club. 

Plenty of players use outside tools and sources like Driveline. Bauer loved driveline and, as far as I know the Indians do take part in this analysis. Outside opinions can provide a different look that you dont get from your team.

I know Ryan from his days at Top Tier Baseball - don't want to pretend that we've spoken recently because we haven't, but I had discussions when he got into consulting on things like biomechanics and as I understand it that is his primary role within the organization. Obviously I think Ptac information is much more first hand and I'd defer to him but he seems to agree.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run