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Matt Lisle speaks out

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1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I think theres some big misconception that off-season work means you don't get it from your club. 

Plenty of players use outside tools and sources like Driveline. 

I know Ryan from his days at Top Tier Baseball - don't want to pretend that we've spoken recently because we haven't, but I had discussions when he got into consulting on things like biomechanics and as I understand it that is his primary role within the organization. Obviously I think Ptac information is much more first hand and I'd defer to him but he seems to agree.

Yep. Everyone has a different philosophy on what constitutes "good" mechanics. This is where the difference is. The problem I have with Driveline and similar groups is they try to make everyone the same. Pitchers are not the same even anatomy is different. So while one philosophy works for one, it may not work for everyone.

I base my view on injury prevention. Many others on pitch velocity or other performance variables. This is why you hear pitchers going to these "schools" or like Giolito back to a previous coach. Not every set of mechanics works for everyone.

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12 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Yep. Everyone has a different philosophy on what constitutes "good" mechanics. This is where the difference is. The problem I have with Driveline and similar groups is they try to make everyone the same. Pitchers are not the same even anatomy is different. So while one philosophy works for one, it may not work for everyone.

I base my view on injury prevention. Many others on pitch velocity or other performance variables. This is why you hear pitchers going to these "schools" or like Giolito back to a previous coach. Not every set of mechanics works for everyone.

Mike Martin; the world's most stubborn swing destroyer!  Swing like I want you to, or leave. 

It took Buster 2 full years before he told him that he thought he was a little more talented than his dumb ass swing plane coaching; in busters ever so polite way of course. You need to be willing to adjust to your players but I guess once you win enough games no one cares.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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Lisle definitely has switched jobs pretty often and quickly. I do like some of his drills and use them with hitters I'm working with but he might not be the easiest person to work with.

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On 12/12/2019 at 11:50 PM, ptatc said:

Yep. Everyone has a different philosophy on what constitutes "good" mechanics. This is where the difference is. The problem I have with Driveline and similar groups is they try to make everyone the same. Pitchers are not the same even anatomy is different. So while one philosophy works for one, it may not work for everyone.

I base my view on injury prevention. Many others on pitch velocity or other performance variables. This is why you hear pitchers going to these "schools" or like Giolito back to a previous coach. Not every set of mechanics works for everyone.

Driveline definitely has success adding velo to pitchers. Only negative thing you could say that except for bauer there hasn't really been a durable starter who regularly goes 180+ip, most of the guys there have been more reliever types.

This doesn't have to be a knock against driveline, there could be a negative selection in that top tier starters don't need to take an extra risk and do that stuff because they are already good and high paid while for some lesser pitchers driveline is the last straw to stay or become relevant.

For hitters it is the same. The top hitters usually don't do swing changes, the guys who do swing changes at 23+ years of age are guys who are on the way out like JDM or donaldson back then, while a 21 yo top prospect who rakes usually wouldn't change his swing. This makes sense, if you are a hitting coach and you change vlad jr and he becomes worse you get fired so you leave him alone and let him hit.

Sometimes thus also the best hitters and pitchers aren't great pitching or hitting coaches because it came naturally to them without them fully understanding it.

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https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/hunter-greene-s-elbow-injury-a-reminder-of-all-we-still-don-t-know/

Hunter Greene is always the first person who pops into my head when people talk about driveline and fixing arms who are breaking.

His injury really drove home that there are no answers.

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The while pitching analytics industry needs to find answers for health. After adding velo and pitch design this will be the next big break through.

The team who significantly improves pitcher health and reduces attrition rate of pitching prosects will have a huge advantage especially now that developing hitters has become better due to all the data and launch angle stuff and thus many teams develope hitters and buy pitchers like Epstein started in Boston and Chicago.

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Remember that Driveline is associated with strong stances on several things — not just mechanics but also the importance of various physical and statistical indicators of performance (e.g., spin rate) as well as training, like their use of weighted balls and the volume of throwing. White Sox could be perfectly aligned on most things but disagree greatly on one and that would be sufficient for them not to encourage their players to work with them.

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1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Seems to me the White Sox are buying into a lot of things people implied they weren't. 

It wasn’t implied.  The Sox simply weren’t doing a lot of things before this offseason.  It’s a nice change.

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1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said:

It wasn’t implied.  The Sox simply weren’t doing a lot of things before this offseason.  It’s a nice change.

This has been a process over the past 4-5 years. It's been slower than some other teams, but they have certainly begun to buy in and implement this organizationally.

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5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This has been a process over the past 4-5 years. It's been slower than some other teams, but they have certainly begun to buy in and implement this organizationally.

Some? 

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11 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This has been a process over the past 4-5 years. It's been slower than some other teams, but they have certainly begun to buy in and implement this organizationally.

Ever since the rebuild started and Hahn and co. started to bring in new guys to the org, they’ve been slowly been becoming a state of the art organization.  There’s a lot of work to do but they’re headed in the right direction. 

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They definitely have been trying to do that and bringing more modern guys but they haven't been as effective in implementing it and sometimes old school coaches would not listen to the modern guys and instead just continue to do like they always did.

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1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

They definitely have been trying to do that and bringing more modern guys but they haven't been as effective in implementing it and sometimes old school coaches would not listen to the modern guys and instead just continue to do like they always did.

I think that’s a big reason why Vizquel is no long a part of the organization but we have to remember that Sox just started giving players individualized game plans when Chris Getz got here. Change isn’t an overnight thing

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On 12/23/2019 at 9:46 AM, southsideirish71 said:

Interesting hire.

Hmm a recent hire after Soxtalk speculation on the Sox not doing enough in that area. I'm not one to normally think the FO keeps tabs on conversations at Soxtalk but that hire is in close proximity to our conversations about it.

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