ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Juschill said: I see your point. It worked out so well the last time the Sox tried it. Just because the Sox have a poor history at it doesnt mean it's bad to hire new people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: He lead the Marlins championships as well. He developed two of the top rated farm systems in baseball, the Expos and Marlins. He rebuilt the Marlins team in 1997 to win another with great youngsters like Beckett and Miggy six years later, taking out the Cubs and Yankees. He spent the money in Detroit his owner wanted him to spend. Just like JR ordered Abreu, right? And Verlander turned out to be a solid contract for the Tigers. Cabrera and Fielder were the only terrible ones, and Zimmerman. If the White Sox need to spend over $170 million to win the World Series, Hahn should receive just a little credit I guess. Ilitch and JR set the tone for those two teams. The Tigers had a run of success and sold out parks from 2006 until 3-4 years ago. The White Sox have hardly beaten those accomplishments in the last forty years of franchise history, other than the anomalous 2005 season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: What? He said Maddon won in two places - he didn't. He had the talent to win in Tampa, and didn't win. Maddon has had some incredibly talented rosters in his managerial career, and he got the team across the finish line once. He's not a terrible manager and he's not a great one. He's just another guy among all the others running a team. Maddon did fine with the Rays. Think about that division and who their competition was. And think about how pathetic their payroll was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: He developed two of the top rated farm systems in baseball, the Expos and Marlins. He rebuilt the Marlins team in 1997 to win another with great youngsters like Beckett and Miggy six years later, taking out the Cubs and Yankees. He spent the money in Detroit his owner wanted him to spend. Just like JR ordered Abreu, right? And Verlander turned out to be a solid contract for the Tigers. Cabrera and Fielder were the only terrible ones, and Zimmerman. If the White Sox need to spend over $170 million to win the World Series, Hahn should receive just a little credit I guess. Ilitch and JR set the tone for those two teams. The Tigers had a run of success and sold out parks from 2006 until 3-4 years ago. The White Sox have hardly beaten those accomplishments in the last forty years of franchise history, other than the anomalous 2005 season. Eh. He's just a hack with a big checkbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: That’s kind of what happened with Semien...without the help of Ron Washington, he could have ended up in Japan. That's ridiculous. Semien would still be a competent fielder and an above average MiF bat anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: He developed two of the top rated farm systems in baseball, the Expos and Marlins. He rebuilt the Marlins team in 1997 to win another with great youngsters like Beckett and Miggy six years later, taking out the Cubs and Yankees. He spent the money in Detroit his owner wanted him to spend. Just like JR ordered Abreu, right? And Verlander turned out to be a solid contract for the Tigers. Cabrera and Fielder were the only terrible ones, and Zimmerman. If the White Sox need to spend over $170 million to win the World Series, Hahn should receive just a little credit I guess. Ilitch and JR set the tone for those two teams. The Tigers had a run of success and sold out parks from 2006 until 3-4 years ago. The White Sox have hardly beaten those accomplishments in the last forty years of franchise history, other than the anomalous 2005 season. So only 3 of the 4 huge contracts he gave out were bad in Detroit. Got it. The 1997 Marlins won with Veterans - the average age of the team was 29 years old. Their starting rotation didn't have a single home grown talent, and of the position players that impacted the roster, only Charles Johnson was a ++ player that was drafted and developed by Dombrowski. Dombrowski is a FA/trade first GM who hit some home runs - absolutely - but he portraying him as some organizational builder through the draft is disingenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, ptatc said: Just because the Sox have a poor history at it doesnt mean it's bad to hire new people. It means stick with what you’re good at and don’t do things you’re not good at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: So only 3 of the 4 huge contracts he gave out were bad in Detroit. Got it. The 1997 Marlins won with Veterans - the average age of the team was 29 years old. Their starting rotation didn't have a single home grown talent, and of the position players that impacted the roster, only Charles Johnson was a ++ player that was drafted and developed by Dombrowski. Dombrowski is a FA/trade first GM who hit some home runs - absolutely - but he portraying him as some organizational builder through the draft is disingenuous. Keep moving those goalposts dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, Juschill said: It means stick with what you’re good at and don’t do things you’re not good at. Which is what? The only successful manager they've had was a new one in Guillen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, daggins said: Keep moving those goalposts dude Where did I move the goalposts? I said Dombrowski doesn't build organizations with sustained success - I said he relies on veterans, and trades all his prospects to obtain those veterans; similarly to a Kenny Williams type approach. The Marlins won a World Series in 1997, and in 1998 they won 54 games and '99 they won 64. Of the 2011 Tigers, how may of those players do you think were drafted by Dombrowski in Detroit? Of the 2013 Tigers, how many were homegrown? Spoiler alert; not many. Edit: And for those that say the Marlins made him get rid of everyone and cut payroll... well, that wouldn't be a problem if his team wasn't littered with aging veterans. Edited January 9, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, ptatc said: Which is what? The only successful manager they've had was a new one in Guillen. So maybe try something new, oh I don’t know, hiring a manager with a major league track record. Just once would be nice. Philadelphia and California and Cleveland and the north side team have done it. Maybe trying it once might be an idea since the other way had been a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, Juschill said: So maybe try something new, oh I don’t know, hiring a manager with a major league track record. Just once would be nice. Philadelphia and California and Cleveland and the north side team have done it. Maybe trying it once might be an idea since the other way had been a disaster. Again though, I challenge anyone to show me an example of the players not liking Renteria. I don't understand why people don't think this is the most important aspect of a manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Juschill said: So maybe try something new, oh I don’t know, hiring a manager with a major league track record. Just once would be nice. Philadelphia and California and Cleveland and the north side team have done it. Maybe trying it once might be an idea since the other way had been a disaster. And Boston and New York and Tampa Bay didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) What is the point of scapegoating a guy for managing a AAA roster that everyone knew was going to be awful? A team whose end goal was very obviously not "Win baseball games"? Edited January 9, 2020 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Where did I move the goalposts? You said he was a hack who couldn't build sustained success. We pointed out that, in fact, he built sustained success in Detroit. Then you said he "hit some home runs" whatever that means, and that he wasn't an org builder. BTW he was GM of the Tigers from 2003-2015. All of that winning was him. Whether it was draft or trades/FA doesn't matter - he built sustained success. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, daggins said: You said he was a hack who couldn't build sustained success. We pointed out that, in fact, he built sustained success in Detroit. Then you said he "hit some home runs" whatever that means, and that he wasn't an org builder. BTW he was GM of the Tigers from 2003-2015. All of that winning was him. Whether it was draft or trades/FA doesn't matter - he built sustained success. The tigers are still paying, to this day, for the "sustained success" dombrowski built. The sustained success that netted them zero titles and revolved solely around giving big free agent contracts. Dombrowski had a losing record over 14 seasons as the head man in detroit. Its funny, people hate kenny William's but in his 13 years as GM the Sox won a World Series, had a winning record, and made 3 playoff appearances. Oh and kenny only had 3 losing seasons in 13 years - less than dave. Sox fans tell everyone how bad Williams is while they praise dombrowski. Kenny did it with less money as well. The hypocrisy is comical. Edited January 9, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 17 minutes ago, mqr said: What is the point of scapegoating a guy for managing a AAA roster that everyone knew was going to be awful? A team whose end goal was very obviously not "Win baseball games"? No doubt. Everyone will know more this year. He finally has a team that should be a winning team. Can his ability to work with players overcome his perceived lack of game strategy savvy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ptatc said: No doubt. Everyone will know more this year. He finally has a team that should be a winning team. Can his ability to work with players overcome his perceived lack of game strategy savvy. It just seems a little surprising to me that the Sox would spend $200+ million on players this offseason but not try to improve on Renteria and acquire a manager who can both work well with players and has good game strategy savvy. That’s what, another $10 to $12 million for a top manager? Edited January 9, 2020 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Kenny Williams career record as White Sox GM 1080-1026. Dave Dombrowksi record as Tigers GM 1082-1123. Dombrowski is a great builder of sustained success in Detroit. Kenny Williams is a hack who knows nothing. Signed, Sox talk. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, Moan4Yoan said: It just seems a little surprising to me that the Sox would spend $200+ million on players this offseason but not try to improve on Renteria and acquire a manager who can both work with players and have good game strategy savvy. That’s what, another $10 to $12 million for a top manager? I cant think of a worse way to spend 12 million dollars than on a manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The tigers are still paying, to this day, for the "sustained success" dombrowski built. The sustained success that netted them zero titles and revolved solely around giving big free agent contracts. The Marlins, Red Sox are still enjoying the WS wins he brought them as well. Like people in all businesses he has had good and bad. He also built the Expos team that may have won the WS had it not been cancelled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Kenny Williams career record as White Sox GM 1080-1026. Dave Dombrowksi record as Tigers GM 1082-1123. Dombrowski is a great builder of sustained success in Detroit. Kenny Williams is a hack who knows nothing. Signed, Sox talk. Kenny Williams: Career highlights and awards World Series champion (2005) Dave Dombrowski: Career highlights and awards 2× World Series champion (1997, 2018) National League champion (1997) 3× American League champion (2006, 2012, 2018) 1990 UPI Executive of the Year 2× Baseball America Executive of the Year (2006, 2018) 2011 co-Sporting News Executive of the Year (with Doug Melvin) Andrew "Rube" Foster Award Lou Boudreau Hall of Fame inductee Signed, Look at Ray Ray Run Edited January 9, 2020 by Moan4Yoan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, ptatc said: The Marlins, Red Sox are still enjoying the WS wins he brought them as well. Like people in all businesses he has had good and bad. He also built the Expos team that may have won the WS had it not been cancelled. Awesome, and my point remains. Dave Dombroski is just another Kenny Williams. Sox fans cant spend a decade complaining about Williams while praising dombrowski. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said: It just seems a little surprising to me that the Sox would spend $200+ million on players this offseason but not try to improve on Renteria and acquire a manager who can both work well with players and has good game strategy savvy. That’s what, another $10 to $12 million for a top manager? In your view. Who is to say he wont be successful with a talented team. They may think his ability to work with young players which us the knock in both Maddon and Girardi, us important to the development of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said: Kenny Williams: 1 World Series ring Dave Dombrowski: 2 World Series rings Signed, Look at Ray Ray Run Dombrowski = 0 world series in Detroit. Dombrowski = 1 WS for every 16 years as GM. Kenny William's = 1 WS for every 13 years as GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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