daggins Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I never said anything about Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Kenny Williams: 1 World Series ring Dave Dombrowski: 2 World Series rings Signed, Look at Ray Ray Run You could give dombrowski another one for building the second Marlins win since they won right after he left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: That’s what, another $10 to $12 million for a top manager? That's 10 to 12 million dollars for an 'improvement' that is impossible to quantify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Awesome, and my point remains. Dave Dombroski is just another Kenny Williams. Sox fans cant spend a decade complaining about Williams while praising dombrowski. I think he has shown to be more successful than Williams as he has won multiple titles in multiple places. I really cant see any comparison with Williams other than they have both been in the Sox organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Kenny Williams: Career highlights and awards World Series champion (2005) Dave Dombrowski: Career highlights and awards 2× World Series champion (1997, 2018) National League champion (1997) 3× American League champion (2006, 2012, 2018) 1990 UPI Executive of the Year 2× Baseball America Executive of the Year (2006, 2018) 2011 co-Sporting News Executive of the Year (with Doug Melvin) Andrew "Rube" Foster Award Lou Boudreau Hall of Fame inductee Signed, Look at Ray Ray Run When you cant dispute facts, you resort to... awards lol. Kenny Williams won more games in 1 less year than dombrowski did in detroit. Kenny williams won a world series. Kenny Williams had smaller budgets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, ptatc said: I think he has shown to be more successful than Williams as he has won multiple titles in multiple places. I really cant see any comparison with Williams other than they have both been in the Sox organization. Well if you cant see the similarities between the two and their styles idk what to tell you bud. Williams and dombrowski competed in the same era for the same players. Williams won a world series and had a better winning % over a 13 year period in which fans here are praising dombrowski. Saying dombrowski won more world series while ignoring the fact that he has more than 2 times as many years as GM is not being statistically honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) Both were successful executives who are maybe underappreciated because they were part of a now-gone era in team building where aggressive trading and spending were feasible strategies because teams valued players very differently, both from today and from each other. Now, every FO is basically the same and it's basically killed the hyper-aggressive "win now" approach in favor of hoarding as much pre-arb talent as possible. Edited January 9, 2020 by daggins 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Well if you cant see the similarities between the two and their styles idk what to tell you bud. Williams and dombrowski competed in the same era for the same players. Williams won a world series and had a better winning % over a 13 year period in which fans here are praising dombrowski. Saying dombrowski won more world series while ignoring the fact that he has more than 2 times as many years as GM is not being statistically honest. What is the similarity in the styles, bud? Dombrowski has mostly worked with high budget teams and spent a great deal of money. William's has had an owner who keeps a tight budget and doesnt spend money. If anything their styles are diametrically opposed to one another. If you've ever met them you would say the same thing. They are totally different people as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, ptatc said: What is the similarity in the styles, bud? Dombrowski has mostly worked with high budget teams and spent a great deal of money. William's has had an owner who keeps a tight budget and doesnt spend money. If anything their styles are diametrically opposed to one another. If you've ever met them you would say the same thing. They are totally different people as well. The premise of both there styles was similar; prospects are overrated and valued and their sole purpose was to acquire proven veterans. The sox also weren't exactly a small market team in williams tenure. They didn't spend at Detroit's level but they also didn't penny pinch with the mlb roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, daggins said: Both were successful executives who are maybe underappreciated because they were part of a now-gone era in team building where aggressive trading and spending were feasible strategies because teams valued players very differently, both from today and from each other. Now, every FO is basically the same and it's basically killed the hyper-aggressive "win now" approach in favor of hoarding as much pre-arb talent as possible. Yes, neither could succeed in the modern game as the sole/lead decision makers without an inordinate amount of resources. Both williams and dombrowski would have succeeded with that red sox roster. Both dombrowski and Williams would make trades that placed far too much weight on present day value. It's not a feasible way to maintain success in the modern game but it doesn't mean you cant win that way ever. My point here is people defend dombrowski while ridiculing Williams - not you it seems - and I don't understand how someone could make a case for one without thinking the other was good as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The premise of both there styles was similar; prospects are overrated and valued and their sole purpose was to acquire proven veterans. The sox also weren't exactly a small market team in williams tenure. They didn't spend at Detroit's level but they also didn't penny pinch with the mlb roster. You are focusing far too much on the Detroit part of his tenure. Look at the big picture. The William's issue is much more complicated as his background was player development and he always pushed to go young and develop players while JR always overruled him and wanted to extend the 2000 team and 2005 team. It wasnt until recently that jr finally gave in to the FO and went young. Personally, I think they could both be considered as successful. William's has just had a tougher time with his restrictions compared to dombrowski. Edited January 9, 2020 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: You are focusing far too much on the Detroit part of his tenure. Look at the big picture. The William's issue is much more complicated as his background was player development and he always pushed to go young and develop players while JR always overruled him and wanted to extend the 2000 team and 2005 team. It wasnt until recently that jr finally gave in to the FO and went young. No. I'm not at all. It's the exact same thing Dave did with the 97 Marlins and the exact same thing he did with the red sox. If he built a team for sustained success in miami (young and controllable) please tell me how they won 54 games the year after they won a world series. Everywhere dave leaves turns to complete shit. Now you're blaming jerry for Kenny williams thought process? Theres nothing about Kenny that signified he wanted to focus on development and not veterans. Edited January 9, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: No. I'm not at all. It's the exact same thing Dave did with the 97 Marlins and the exact same thing he did with the red sox. If he built a team for sustained success in miami (young and controllable) please tell me how they won 54 games the year after they won a world series. Everywhere dave leaves turns to complete shit. Most of the second Marlins WS title were players drafted and acquired under dombrowski. The expos team in the mid 90s was also drafted and developed under his term. Most teams after winning a WS go down hill afterwards as they get expensive due to the players success. Also take into consideration why he was brought into the organization. Most of the time his charge was to take a team that was close and then go win a WS. He did exactly what he was hired to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ptatc said: Most of the second Marlins WS title were players drafted and acquired under dombrowski. The expos team in the mid 90s was also drafted and developed under his term. Most teams after winning a WS go down hill afterwards as they get expensive due to the players success. Also take into consideration why he was brought into the organization. Most of the time his charge was to take a team that was close and then go win a WS. He did exactly what he was hired to do. You think the Marlins fall was a standard drop off after a WS title? What? They had the worst year in baseball history following a WS. One time (the red sox) he was brought in to "go win a WS." You cant give the guy credit for the Red Sox World Series (as putting them over the edge with someone elses players) and the 2003 Marlins world series. Those things are polar opposites. Edited January 9, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 45 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: You think the Marlins fall was a standard drop off after a WS title? What? They had the worst year in baseball history following a WS. One time (the red sox) he was brought in to "go win a WS." You cant give the guy credit for the Red Sox World Series (as putting them over the edge with someone elses players) and the 2003 Marlins world series. Those things are polar opposites. What happen the the Sox after Williams won the WS. Within a few years they were bad as well. To each his own. I think they were both successful in their own circumstances. I'll give the edge to the guy who won multiple titles and helped build a couple others. That's a better track record than probably 90% of GMs in the modern era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold's Leg Lift Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, daggins said: Both were successful executives who are maybe underappreciated because they were part of a now-gone era in team building where aggressive trading and spending were feasible strategies because teams valued players very differently, both from today and from each other. Now, every FO is basically the same and it's basically killed the hyper-aggressive "win now" approach in favor of hoarding as much pre-arb talent as possible. This thinking is killing baseball. The competitiveness is gone. It's now horseshoes and hand gernades. Coming close (and cashing giant checks) is the new winning. Don't tell me if you won a WS tell me how many times you came in second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 If you would have told me Sox fans would have so much contempt for the GM that finally built a world series winner, I wouldn't have believed you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said: This thinking is killing baseball. The competitiveness is gone. It's now horseshoes and hand gernades. Coming close (and cashing giant checks) is the new winning. Don't tell me if you won a WS tell me how many times you came in second. I dont necessarily agree. While we want them to win a WS, too many teams are going to a rebuild and are awful for years like the Astros. If teams finish second at least they are competitive and the entire league is competitive. As it stands there are far too many teams that are not competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: If you would have told me Sox fans would have so much contempt for the GM that finally built a world series winner, I wouldn't have believed you. I agree. However, he did bring some of it on himself by being too honest with fans. Fans dont want honesty from their FO, they want them to agree with the fans point if view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ptatc said: I agree. However, he did bring some of it on himself by being too honest with fans. Fans dont want honesty from their FO, they want them to agree with the fans point if view. I think there's a few things going on. Some of the older fans were never going to like an outspoken, and often arrogant, black man telling them how it is. Some of the younger fans just can't conceptualize how real the feeling that the Sox might never win one was, and they take it for granted. Edited January 9, 2020 by TaylorStSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: I think there's a few things going on. Some of the older fans were never going to like an outspoken, and often arrogant, black man telling them how it is. Some of the younger fans just can't conceptualize how real the feeling that the Sox might never win one was, and they take it for granted. Fans just cant handle the truth when it comes to the business side of the game. They want an unlimited budget and for the teams not care about business because that's how we look at it. Unfortunately that isn't reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ptatc said: Fans just cant handle the truth when it comes to the business side of the game. They want an unlimited budget and for the teams not care about business because that's how we look at it. Unfortunately that isn't reality. Just my opinion, but....Sports franchises are a hobby for billionaires and not businesses in and of themselves. Convincing me otherwise is an insult to my intelligence. Any owner that treats their franchise as a business rather than a hobby should be forced to sell. They have a responsibility to the fans to win at all costs. Only owners with the mentality of a George Steinbrenner or Mark Cuban should be allowed to own teams. If an owner isn't ok giving out the contract that Gerrit Cole got this winter, then he should not be allowed to own a team. Edited January 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Just my opinion, but....Sports franchises are a hobby for billionaires and not businesses in and of themselves. Convincing me otherwise is an insult to my intelligence. Any owner that treats their franchise as a business rather than a hobby should be forced to sell. They have a responsibility to the fans to win at all costs. Only owners with the mentality of a George Steinbrenner or Mark Cuban should be allowed to own teams. If an owner isn't ok giving out the contract that Gerrit Cole got this winter, then he should not be allowed to own a team. Well I guess will insult your intelligence. You may look at it as a hobby for billionaires but the vast majority of them do not. They have not built their billions by losing money on a business. You are not living in reality if you think there are 100 possible owners of sports teams that will act like Cuban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Just my opinion, but....Sports franchises are a hobby for billionaires and not businesses in and of themselves. Convincing me otherwise is an insult to my intelligence. Any owner that treats their franchise as a business rather than a hobby should be forced to sell. They have a responsibility to the fans to win at all costs. Only owners with the mentality of a George Steinbrenner or Mark Cuban should be allowed to own teams. If an owner isn't ok giving out the contract that Gerrit Cole got this winter, then he should not be allowed to own a team. How in the hell would you ever go about regulating the motivations of business owners? Also, being a fan is 100% voluntary. Your investment in sports is of your own doing. Owners owe you nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skooch Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 These are the kind of statements I always prepend with, "Someday, when I'm dictator ..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.