Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF

****Some Observations including Sabermetrics

Recommended Posts

Sorry to be the guy to cry on the hit parade of Sabermetrics but if there is one aspect that has badly hurt the game it is this.  The Dodgers essentially play the game based upon what a computer says.

If anyone wants to improve the game let managers manage the game.

And for some reason pitchers no longer wind up and there is a huge increase in TJ's.

For those upset with the Astros using electronic surveillance to steal signs please get over it as technology has taken over the game.

Is it me or does anyone else find offensive that Alex Rodriguez is broadcasting on television despite being caught how many times after a contract was signed?

Remember when it happened with McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Bonds there had yet to be a negotiated agreement with the Player's Association and MLB.

Or for that matter how about the overuse of theories expounded by Charlie Lau including the idea of taking the top hand off the bad upon swinging.

Look at most of the greatest hitters of all time from Joe Jackson to Ty Cobb to Babe Ruth to Lou Gehrig to Ted Williams to Wilie Mays to Henry Aaron to Frank Robinson to Dick Allen all did not have so called launch angles.

Many of today's scouts could never work back in the day.

Why is it the pitchers have such a challenging time hiding the baseball or maintaining a high leg kick like most pitchers of yesteryear.  Johnson.  Mathewson. Grove. Feller. Spahn. Koufax. Marichal. Gibson. Perry. Palmer. McClain.  And that is just for openers.

Over analysis has tainted the game as much as anything.

There needs to be a rule that there is no communication between upstairs and the dugout during the game.

And why are today's ballplayers so deficient in being able to hit with two strikes.

Minus Juan Soto who is a throwback this skill is terrible today.

Anyone watch Barry Bonds hit?

Always chokes up.

Contact is everything and despite choking up he is one of the greatest hitters of all-time.

Sorry to suggest it but Sabremetrics though viable to some degree is the greatest example of mental masturbation in all of the game and has taken the human element out of the game.

Is it me or does something not fit with so called scouts today who have sacrificed their gifts for real examples of technological malfeasance?

And one other issue that needs to be discussed is the shift from pine to maple wood bats and a much tighter wound ball.

Long overdue to stop calls from upstairs to the manager.

And what qualifies so many of today's Yale educated GM's because they are stats guys?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF said:

Sorry to be the guy to cry on the hit parade of Sabermetrics but if there is one aspect that has badly hurt the game it is this.  The Dodgers essentially play the game based upon what a computer says.

If anyone wants to improve the game let managers manage the game.

And for some reason pitchers no longer wind up and there is a huge increase in TJ's.

For those upset with the Astros using electronic surveillance to steal signs please get over it as technology has taken over the game.

Is it me or does anyone else find offensive that Alex Rodriguez is broadcasting on television despite being caught how many times after a contract was signed?

Remember when it happened with McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Bonds there had yet to be a negotiated agreement with the Player's Association and MLB.

Or for that matter how about the overuse of theories expounded by Charlie Lau including the idea of taking the top hand off the bad upon swinging.

Look at most of the greatest hitters of all time from Joe Jackson to Ty Cobb to Babe Ruth to Lou Gehrig to Ted Williams to Wilie Mays to Henry Aaron to Frank Robinson to Dick Allen all did not have so called launch angles.

Many of today's scouts could never work back in the day.

Why is it the pitchers have such a challenging time hiding the baseball or maintaining a high leg kick like most pitchers of yesteryear.  Johnson.  Mathewson. Grove. Feller. Spahn. Koufax. Marichal. Gibson. Perry. Palmer. McClain.  And that is just for openers.

Over analysis has tainted the game as much as anything.

There needs to be a rule that there is no communication between upstairs and the dugout during the game.

And why are today's ballplayers so deficient in being able to hit with two strikes.

Minus Juan Soto who is a throwback this skill is terrible today.

Anyone watch Barry Bonds hit?

Always chokes up.

Contact is everything and despite choking up he is one of the greatest hitters of all-time.

Sorry to suggest it but Sabremetrics though viable to some degree is the greatest example of mental masturbation in all of the game and has taken the human element out of the game.

Is it me or does something not fit with so called scouts today who have sacrificed their gifts for real examples of technological malfeasance?

And one other issue that needs to be discussed is the shift from pine to maple wood bats and a much tighter wound ball.

Long overdue to stop calls from upstairs to the manager.

And what qualifies so many of today's Yale educated GM's because they are stats guys?

 

"the dodgers essentially play the game based on what the computer says"....

 

That's a super duper hot take since the Dodgers have been one of the best teams the past decade. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*old man shakes fist at sky*

This reads like a Rodney Dangerfield skit, The answer to all of your questions is that it makes the ballclub better for cheaper. Also Ted Williams had a launch angle in his swing, he even taught it.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF said:

And what qualifies so many of today's Yale educated GM's because they are stats guys?

 

Well, they won't stop winning for one. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The concept of launch angle is a primary reason for so many strike outs in the game.

Yes, the observation of Ted Williams swing is accurate accept one major factor.

Ted Williams always had his top hand over the top not the theories of Charlie Lau.

Williams had a move level swing.

Most of histories best hitters would never not have their top hand on the bat.

Bad philosophy.

Poor coaching based on theory that was created when there was Astroturf.

Also please examine the list enclosed as none were not taking their top hand off the bat and most swung down hitting on the fat part of the bat and with follow through.

Consider that Henry Aaron who is one of the best right handed hitters of all-time never once struck out 100 times a season.

And he played in an era where top pitchers would flatten a player on his backside for standing too close to the plate as well as being an era of the pitcher.

The computer has helped to some degree but has harmed the game in other ways.

Sure that Casey Stengel could not even manage today.

When we play in a game where the maple wood bad, juiced ball and strikeouts off the scale and fans preferring a pitcher going the distance who invented the theory of only being able to throw 100 pitches?

And people wonder why ratings are dropping.

Can anyone imagine Michael Jordan or Tom Brady just to name two being on a clock?

Makes no sense particularly with the training tools available today.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not.

However I did coach baseball and growing up had excellent teachers of the game.

One other factor rarely mentioned is that American ballplayers have to misgivings of growing up swinging an aluminum bat something that if MLB was smart they would provide financing  to maintain wood bats in the game.

One of the very worst things that has happened to the game.

The great talent in Central and South America as well as the Islands these players have the distinct advantage of playing from a yound age with wooden bats where so many of those with so called launch angles perfected their craft.

Take the time and look at the swings of great players of the past.

Also note that with two strikes players adapted to the situation (see Juan Soto) or in the case of Barry Bonds he always choked up.

Wish it were not the case but much of the coaching today is theory when in fact keeping the ball in play versus striking out is essential to the game.

Taught players I had how to control the strike zone by believe it or not swinging down on the ball to increase one's power and always using the hands and wrists throughout the full swing.

Once players saw the increase in so called velocity and distance they were not going back.

Wanna talk about hustle and con in the game consider the bats and juiced balls that were on full display last season.

For all those that objected to growth hormone and steroid compounds which were never negotiated on eventually agreed upon for any owner to play games with the baseball is ultimate hypocrisy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grady Fuson?  How goes life after Moneyball?

Meanwhile, DePodesta/Jonah Hill has brought analytics into the NFL, as well.

 

The Dodgers haven’t won with analytics, it has been with out-scouting everyone since the 1950’s in Latin America...prescient drafting, big budgets, great pitching and almost never giving out huge contracts, other than the last one for Clayton Kershaw.

You can add connections in Asia as well, and not only having a RoY candidate every season but discovering gems like Turner, Chris Taylor and Max Muncy, to name just a few. 

Edited by caulfield12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is the latest cult in modern sports going.

Amazing that people are angry at the Astros when likely many teams are doing it.

One simple solution that during the games only the managers and his coaches should have access to data and none of the Charlie Finley calls from the press box.

So much data today such as pitch framing is so exaggerated it is laughable.

I fully understand being a pioneer in what was created in the early 80's called point differential in basketball done first at Summer League games at Loyola-Marymount in the Playa Del Ray area of Los Angeles.

In basketball this can clearly be ween in terms of say a Bill Walton or a Michael Jordan there is a definitive analysis of what point differential is.

As for baseball minus say a pitcher, catcher or star player how is that equitable.

Consider Adam Eaton when he was with the White Sox had a good WAR.

Now does anyone truly believe Eaton is a premier play.

Some of the data beyond certain things can be quite misleading in baseball.

What is even more amazing is good catchers do not get financially what they deserve based upon their contributions in the game.

See Buster Posey,  Yadier Molina and Salvador Perez.

Under the terms and conditions of what a catcher means to a team they seem underpaid despite the unbelievalbe amounts guys are paid today. 

Want to improve the quality of the game one way is to slow the use of computers from upstairs during the game.

One wonders how Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Sparky Anderson, Casey Stengel, Al Lopez et al.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF said:

It is the latest cult in modern sports going.

Amazing that people are angry at the Astros when likely many teams are doing it.

One simple solution that during the games only the managers and his coaches should have access to data and none of the Charlie Finley calls from the press box.

So much data today such as pitch framing is so exaggerated it is laughable.

I fully understand being a pioneer in what was created in the early 80's called point differential in basketball done first at Summer League games at Loyola-Marymount in the Playa Del Ray area of Los Angeles.

In basketball this can clearly be ween in terms of say a Bill Walton or a Michael Jordan there is a definitive analysis of what point differential is.

As for baseball minus say a pitcher, catcher or star player how is that equitable.

Consider Adam Eaton when he was with the White Sox had a good WAR.

Now does anyone truly believe Eaton is a premier play.

Some of the data beyond certain things can be quite misleading in baseball.

What is even more amazing is good catchers do not get financially what they deserve based upon their contributions in the game.

See Buster Posey,  Yadier Molina and Salvador Perez.

Under the terms and conditions of what a catcher means to a team they seem underpaid despite the unbelievalbe amounts guys are paid today. 

Want to improve the quality of the game one way is to slow the use of computers from upstairs during the game.

One wonders how Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Sparky Anderson, Casey Stengel, Al Lopez et al.

 

Adam Eaton exploited the weakness in fWAR for outfield assists that season....just like Avi Garcia when he had one season with a 10+ number of assists.  Of course, those outfielders that nobody runs on don't get equal credit for having the ability to control the running game, at least not in as easily a measurable/quantifiable way.

He went from below average in CF to a well-above average corner outfielder, then put up the key offensive statistics that fWAR values to go along with it.

But yeah, the point remains that teams are not willing to reward the Orioles for a 4ish fWAR infielder in Jose Villar...or nobody's willing to give Yolmer Sanchez $10+ million per year for being around a 2-2.5ish fWAR more often than not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, yeah, you'll never convince anyone from my father's generation that current day ballplayers are/were better than Mantle, Aaron, Mays and Clemente, or Gibson, Koufax and Drysdale....let alone Ted Williams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with a lot of what you point out but George Brett and Frank Thomas and later Carlton Fisk were Lau disciples.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF said:

Sorry to be the guy to cry on the hit parade of Sabermetrics but if there is one aspect that has badly hurt the game it is this.  The Dodgers essentially play the game based upon what a computer says.

If anyone wants to improve the game let managers manage the game.

And for some reason pitchers no longer wind up and there is a huge increase in TJ's.

For those upset with the Astros using electronic surveillance to steal signs please get over it as technology has taken over the game.

Is it me or does anyone else find offensive that Alex Rodriguez is broadcasting on television despite being caught how many times after a contract was signed?

Remember when it happened with McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Bonds there had yet to be a negotiated agreement with the Player's Association and MLB.

Or for that matter how about the overuse of theories expounded by Charlie Lau including the idea of taking the top hand off the bad upon swinging.

Look at most of the greatest hitters of all time from Joe Jackson to Ty Cobb to Babe Ruth to Lou Gehrig to Ted Williams to Wilie Mays to Henry Aaron to Frank Robinson to Dick Allen all did not have so called launch angles.

Many of today's scouts could never work back in the day.

Why is it the pitchers have such a challenging time hiding the baseball or maintaining a high leg kick like most pitchers of yesteryear.  Johnson.  Mathewson. Grove. Feller. Spahn. Koufax. Marichal. Gibson. Perry. Palmer. McClain.  And that is just for openers.

Over analysis has tainted the game as much as anything.

There needs to be a rule that there is no communication between upstairs and the dugout during the game.

And why are today's ballplayers so deficient in being able to hit with two strikes.

Minus Juan Soto who is a throwback this skill is terrible today.

Anyone watch Barry Bonds hit?

Always chokes up.

Contact is everything and despite choking up he is one of the greatest hitters of all-time.

Sorry to suggest it but Sabremetrics though viable to some degree is the greatest example of mental masturbation in all of the game and has taken the human element out of the game.

Is it me or does something not fit with so called scouts today who have sacrificed their gifts for real examples of technological malfeasance?

And one other issue that needs to be discussed is the shift from pine to maple wood bats and a much tighter wound ball.

Long overdue to stop calls from upstairs to the manager.

And what qualifies so many of today's Yale educated GM's because they are stats guys?

 

What part of this has anything to do with sabermetrics?

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that literally every other athletic endeavour on the planet has gotten incredibly more advanced, seen records broken and so forth given the passage of time -- sorta leads me to believe that today's MLB players just might be, on average a little better than previous generations.

That said, greatness is greatness, that's why baseball stats that are normalized by year and relative to the league are so fucking cool;  we can easily compare players relative to their peers.

And of course if Ted Williams was alive today or any other superstar of the past they'd have gotten the best sports training and science and all the advantages so they'd just as good as Trout or Lebron or Bolt or whoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ruth and Mantle with modern fitness/conditioning/osteopathic surgeons and no alcohol?

Someone like a Jobe or Dr. Andrews capable of repairing Sandy Koufax's body or Gale Sayers, for example?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread needs more italics like the song "Don't Fear The Reaper" needs more cowbell.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF said:

Sorry to be the guy to cry on the hit parade of Sabermetrics but if there is one aspect that has badly hurt the game it is this.  The Dodgers essentially play the game based upon what a computer says.

If anyone wants to improve the game let managers manage the game.

And for some reason pitchers no longer wind up and there is a huge increase in TJ's.

For those upset with the Astros using electronic surveillance to steal signs please get over it as technology has taken over the game.

Is it me or does anyone else find offensive that Alex Rodriguez is broadcasting on television despite being caught how many times after a contract was signed?

Remember when it happened with McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Bonds there had yet to be a negotiated agreement with the Player's Association and MLB.

Or for that matter how about the overuse of theories expounded by Charlie Lau including the idea of taking the top hand off the bad upon swinging.

Look at most of the greatest hitters of all time from Joe Jackson to Ty Cobb to Babe Ruth to Lou Gehrig to Ted Williams to Wilie Mays to Henry Aaron to Frank Robinson to Dick Allen all did not have so called launch angles.

Many of today's scouts could never work back in the day.

Why is it the pitchers have such a challenging time hiding the baseball or maintaining a high leg kick like most pitchers of yesteryear.  Johnson.  Mathewson. Grove. Feller. Spahn. Koufax. Marichal. Gibson. Perry. Palmer. McClain.  And that is just for openers.

Over analysis has tainted the game as much as anything.

There needs to be a rule that there is no communication between upstairs and the dugout during the game.

And why are today's ballplayers so deficient in being able to hit with two strikes.

Minus Juan Soto who is a throwback this skill is terrible today.

Anyone watch Barry Bonds hit?

Always chokes up.

Contact is everything and despite choking up he is one of the greatest hitters of all-time.

Sorry to suggest it but Sabremetrics though viable to some degree is the greatest example of mental masturbation in all of the game and has taken the human element out of the game.

Is it me or does something not fit with so called scouts today who have sacrificed their gifts for real examples of technological malfeasance?

And one other issue that needs to be discussed is the shift from pine to maple wood bats and a much tighter wound ball.

Long overdue to stop calls from upstairs to the manager.

And what qualifies so many of today's Yale educated GM's because they are stats guys?

 

That sounds really old school. You were the kid who walked uphill to and from school. In ten feet of snow. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

This thread needs more italics like the song "Don't Fear The Reaper" needs more cowbell.

I don't think the new software will support that much 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

WTF?!?

Don't ask
 

it's for the best 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

WTF?!?

You might not like it, but this is what quintessential Boomerposting looks like
See above.

BackDoorBreach.   Posted 12 hours ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some noteworthy transciptions.

Would have gotten back earlier but an seriously under the weather.

Issues abound and I concur today's athletes due to numerous factors and access to some of the very best in training techniques can never be overlooked or neglected.

That said ignoring some of the basics in the game is problematic as is the concept of one side fits all.

Dennis Rodman won five titles and is in the Hall of Fame not because of his great shooting range from 25 feet but despite of it as the man's defense, play off the ball and supreme rebounding were so good he left his lack of a good jump shot and need to score where it did not hurt the team nor himself.

A great player knows his strengths and weaknesses and Rodman is one of the rare breed who truly took it to the next level.

This is true of all sports with baseball being no less of a reminder.

Certain issues in today's game have been ignored and one of the basics deal with the wrists and hand as to how to effectively make contact with the baseball.

In times where trends are commonplace and themes are openly copied which never made sense to me certain observations are meant to be studies to improve the quality of the game.

Hence the name Juan Soto who is most definitely a throw back from another era as if he walked through a time machine.

How often does a player these days change his feet, and adjust his hands and fingers on the bat and heaven forbid when was the last time we saw someone actually in situational and two-out hitting choke up to make contact to make sure the ball is in play adjusting his swing to fit the timing and situation.

Did you hear that Yolmer?

You are a great defender but someone missed the boat not a player whose name is not Mike Trout or Barry Bonds  you how to choke up and just make consistent contact.

And Yolmer here this good you are not a power hitter so avoid the launch angle cult and get back to focusing on contact which means swinging down on the ball.

Many of you might not reminder this since your days in Little League but it is fundamental if you plan on taking your game to the next level.

White Sox have a youngster who is most definitely a throw back in Nick Madrigal whose strikeout ratio brings back memories of HOF second baseman Nellie Fox and having the acumen again to know one's limitation and in Nick's case really know how to barrel the ball in many ways is exquisite.

Modeling which was done during the Charlie Lau or any era is commonplace and for some it may have worked and done so well but falling in love with a new approach sometimes can have side effects on the game but one thing has never changed and neither Charlie Lau or Walt Hriniak would concur that you have to make contact and put the ball in play.

Watching someone like Adam Dunn or Yolmer strikeout with regularity does no one any good and has taken the game down.

Not expecting Dunn  to have been much more than he was but Yolmer has a solid baseball IQ and with adequate coaching much of his stroke could be cleaned up for the better of him as a potential utility ball player and a winning teammate.

Out for now.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW you can model but cannot copy Michael Jordan.

That said if anyone out there can model Warren Spahn who barely could break a pane of glass throwing today he would still dominate the game based upon his understanding of how to pitch.

The so called Tommy John's of baseball or Jim Kaat's were not fire baller's and neither was Frank Tanana when he eventually revamped himself.

Speed is great but minus Roger Clemons and Nolan Ryan and one was enhanced most don't always maintain their fastball.

Sandy Koufax had great stuff but he knew how to pitch.

100 pitches.

Don't get me started.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×