Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
BackDoorBreach

Offseason Moves - Grade em'

Recommended Posts

59 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://risingapple.com/2020/01/06/mets-sign-cuban-oscar-colas/
We’ll see if he actually play RF.  This is the first report I’ve read that mentioned plus range, along with his arm that would be up there with Adolfo’s.  Where they got that info from, other than internet rumors, no idea.

He certainly looks more like a 1B/DH physically, but so does Puig or Avi.

One of the comments really hits the nail on the head.  Nobody has a really thorough scouting report on this kid, just generalities and projections.

Every team will get a good look at him before he signs when he does a showcase. Until then we have no idea how good is he or if he's worth signing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Let's quit sugarcoating the Abreu deal. It simply was not good. It was a signing orchestrated but Reinsdorf, not Hahn. Unless he miraculously does not decline and it helps us get Colas, it's a lousy signing. 

So you are going to ignore his influence in the Robert signing but will give him credit for helping us sign an older complete unknown entity ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grandal: A+

Keuchel: B, but SP was looking like an
F

Abreu extension: C-

Mazara trade: C 

Robert extension: A 

Gio Gonzalez: B- 

Encarnacion: B

Cishek: B-

not trading away young, cheap and controllable talent: A+ 

overall: high B / low B+ 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I wanted for 2020 was a major league lineup. That is what the Sox have. We will see if the organization takes the final steps to complete this rebuild.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grandal: A.

Hopefully we can get two prime framing years out of him before the league transitions to the electronic strike zone. He checks a lot of boxes, and kills like 4 birds with one stone: solidifies the catching position for the next few years and hopefully can steal some strikes the next couple years, satisfies the need for high OBP, power, and the ability to bat LHH with an above average wRC+. FO deserves great credit for striking early and not playing games. I bet CIN regrets not matching the 4/73 deal when they ended up paying just 9m less for Moustakas. Home run signing. Hopefully he can also help Collins develop a little bit too so he can be ready to be the full time backup in 2021.

Abreu: This grade was an D but now it's a C-.

On paper, this was indefensible. An aging RH slugger who is a liability at 1st probably is a 2 win guy going forward (declining from there) so a three year deal for 16.8 a year makes little sense especially with Vaughn coming up in 2021 and the DH long term prolly should be a LHH. Yes, there is lockerroom value and leadership but even that couldn't totally justify this. I did read on this board  that Abreu really pushed Robert to sign the extension, which if true, would help to justify the deal somewhat. If he can play a role in Moncada doing the same, the deal would go from a C- (post Robert) to a B.

 Keuchel: B+

Ordinarily  give this a B or B-, but I cannot blame the FO for Wheeler turning down 125m. He would have been a more ideal 2, with untapped upside, but the valuation there was already stretched and the offer was very generous given the risk. Keuchel is nothing special, but should give us a lot of quality starts, and his groundball game should be a good fit in GRF. If the other pitchers develop, I doubt Keuchel will hit the IP marks to get the 4th year, so 55m over only 3 years to leave money for Kopech, Cease etc if they develop makes sense. He should be a solid 3 and being LH helps too. Given the circumstances with Wheeler turning down an overpay, this is probably the best risk reward deal they could have done. It's certainly less risky than 4/80 for Ryu. 

Gonzalez A

Very good deal with additional option flexibility. Should be one of the better 5s out there. He can serve a variety of roles when other guys come back from injury. 

 

Mazara B

I would have preferred Pederson but I suspect LAD was still insisting on Bummer. Props to the FO for coming up with an alternative LHH platoon in RF for a fraction of the cost. Even if he doesn't develop, I'll take 20-23 HR with 830 to 850 OPS against RHH for 70% of the starts. That's a ton better than what we had. The D will be slightly below average but that's  not too bad. Looking at it in retrospect good cost/benefit signing. If he doesn't perform, we can sign Pederson for free next year and there's a lot of other OF talent available too. A couple years of control is good too....excited to see what Menechino can do with his swing. Even a small improvement would make him an above average player offensively. 

Cishek A

Very good addition to the bullpen at a reasonable price. I like the option. RH has done a good job getting additional flexibility for 2021 with very cheap buyouts if they don't need it. 

Encarnacion: A

Another smart short term signing. Makes so much more sense than having to give Castellanos 3-4 years. Putting him at DH is great because he will prolly give us more than the 2 WAR he is projected for considering there won't be too many situations where he will play on defense which limits the negative value situations. I'll happily pay 12m for about 30 HRs and decent OBP. Huge upgrade at DH for only 1 year and cheap buyout on the option. Again, RH did a great job on these deals for flexibility for 2021. 

Robert Extension A+

Tremendous deal. We will have Robert pretty much for all his prime. Id expect Robert to be a 3 to 5 WAR guy on average, which at AAV of about 11m (over 8 years) is great. He might have a few 5+ WAR seasons in his prime. This is an excellent use of the difference between Keuchel and Wheeler's deal.

 

Overall: A-

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So you are going to ignore his influence in the Robert signing but will give him credit for helping us sign an older complete unknown entity ?

I don't buy for a second that he helped with the Robert signing. Money talks, and that large sum of money is what got it done

Edited by ron883

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ron883 said:

I don't buy for a second that he helped with the Robert signing. Money talks, and that large sum of money is what got it done

Maybe I’m wrong, but I swear someone reported or mentioned that he pushed him to accept the deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great and fun topic. Here's my ratings:

Abreu extension: B-

OP gave it a C-, I gave it a B-. I'm not as down on Abreu's production as a lot are, but this contract was more than what his output will likely be. I am a fan, however, of teams keeping their talent. Abreu should be average or above average for the length of his contract and I love him as a Sock. I'm happy with it.

Grandal signing: A

I'll stick with OP's A grade. Very happy to have a competent catcher behind the plate and he switch hits. 

Mazara trade: D+

I agree with OP that this move sucks. I would have much rather been in the market for Ozuna/Cast/Puig/Trade rather than go for Mazara. I can't deny that objectively, the trade looks good. Mazara has some serious potential, but he also has a track record of being below average or right there. This move seems to block the sox from going after Castellanos which I thought would have been a GREAT move by the Sox, especially considering his market now seems low.

Keuchel signing: B-

OP gave it a C, I give it a B-. Look, we HAD to get a SP. Keuchel cost us only money (no trading away prospects) and he's a pro. His ERA/WHIP's aren't very bad at all. He could be the stabilizer this rotation needs and maybe we hit the jackpot with a Cy-young type year. I'm just happy we will have pitching staff with potential 1 through 5 (and maybe even 6).

Gio G signing: B+

I agree with OP's B+ and my comments regarding Keuchel fit here.

EE signing: B

OP gave it a B+, I give it a B. The contract is fantastic. One year with an option for two. That's what makes this so great. I just would have liked to use the DH spot a bit differently, but can't complain given the contract.

Luis Robert extension: A+

Nuff said

Cishek signing: B+

Needed a reliever and well... his stats are awesome.

Overall: B to B+

After losing out on Wheeler I was losing my hope. But the W'Sox had turned it around and won the offseason. Now if only they could go after Castellanos this would be an A.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, ron883 said:

Let's quit sugarcoating the Abreu deal. It simply was not good. It was a signing orchestrated but Reinsdorf, not Hahn. Unless he miraculously does not decline and it helps us get Colas, it's a lousy signing. 

How is, at this point, the Abreu extension even a question about what it what it was? Grandal's first words about signing here were about that extension. 

 

Hes being paid a lot for his production. But also because to tell the Cubans the White Sox will take care of you life. Weve seen two contracts in a matter of months to prove that.

 

Edit: lol my bad just realized I was responding to ron.

Edited by Buehrle>Wood
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

EE is more apt to fall off than Abreu who has a potential correctable flaw. These guys have never played on a winner so maybe some will rise to the occasion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A- on the whole. Wheeler over Kuechal would have made it an unqualified success. Still, I would have signed up for this offseason in a heartbeat in September. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Buehrle>Wood said:

How is, at this point, the Abreu extension even a question about what it what it was? Grandal's first words about signing here were about that extension. 

 

Hes being paid a lot for his production. But also because to tell the Cubans the White Sox will take care of you life. Weve seen two contracts in a matter of months to prove that.

 

Edit: lol my bad just realized I was responding to ron.

I agree with this and like the Abreu extension. There is something to be said for keeping the face of the franchise and clubhouse leader happy. It sends a great  message to the rest of the team. I like to think that him knowing he’ll be around during this team’s peak window to compete can only help with his and the overall team morale and is better than having your leader on a one year contract and unsure if he’ll be around. I believe the extension had as much to do with his production (which has been great) as with building team chemistry. With so many new people, team chemistry and the ability for this group to gel together quickly is going to be key.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Assuming the Sox are done with major off-season aquisitions I'd like to see grades for each individual move.

Abreu extension: C-

I don't hate Jose Abreu but I thought the QO was exactly what he should have got and ended with.  I'm not a fan of essentially giving him a 3 year deal which will include his age 34 and 35 seasons in the heart of contention.  With Vaughn likely up in 2021, Abreu's extension locks him in as our DH as he ages, instead of leaving some roster flexibility for a more impactful bat.

Grandal signing: A

I liked the idea of Grandal as a target but I thought the FO would look at him as a luxury and not a need.  This is a great signing in every way and the aggressiveness the Sox attacked him with was fantastic.  Grandal breaks up the handedness and adds great OBP and decent power to the lineup.  Defensively he should be extremely impactful to our young staff.

Mazara trade: D

Thanks, I hate it. I've argued this up and down multiple times on here and this move is still ass.  If being 24 was a skillset I might feel more neutral than negative but it's not.  I don't care that they traded Walker. I don't care if anybody in the minors after Vaughn is traded as long as it is for impact.  Mazara, unfortunately, has not done much of anything impactful.  He's a shitty fielder and will be reduced to a platoon role.  This is not a win now move in any way, shape, or form.  This is a move you make when you are a rebuilding team as Mazara has been replacement level his 4 year career and was a legitimate non-tender candidate for the Rangers.  There were multiple other OF's available that would have added a lot more to the table than Mazara.  Using the excuse that he'll be our #8 hitter or he's an upgrade from last year is not valid.  He has been at best a 4th OF on a winning team in his career.

Keuchel signing: C

Keuchel does some nice...or different things for our rotation.  Soft tossing lefty that lives low and has the pedigree and mentality to be a nice addition.  I didn't want anything to do with Keuchel before FA started as his peripheral numbers have been declining as he has aged.  I was also thinking we would strike a deal with a pitcher with more upside and #2 potential.  Unfortunately that didn't happen and now our bearded friend will likely be our #2, for now.  He gives you innings if nothing else and shouldn't be a bad signing as he is still effective enough to give you 2-2.5 WAR.  At the time he was signed I wanted him more than Ryu as Keuchel can stay on the field.  Don't mistake it though, one of Kopech/Cease/Lopez now HAS to really ramp it up with a rotation spot locked up for the next 3-4 years.

Gio G signing: B+

I like this signing and think it's ALMOST perfect assuming he's a placeholder and insurance.  Gio still has some in the tank I think and should be good for what he'll be asked to do as Kopech gets back.  

EE signing: B+

This guy fucks still at the plate even in his twilight years and has an ingrained hatred for Twins pitching. On it's face the move is win now and he should add 30+ bombs to a club that was power starved last year.  My gripe with this is that I would have prefered to use the DH spot with a combination of Abreu/Grandal/Collins/McCann to keep their bats in the lineup while staying fresh and to add more position versatility to bench.  

Luis Robert extension: A++++

Easily my favorite move of the offseason.  Not a lot to say about this if you have been paying attention.  Lineup wise we will be nearly full strength OD by extending our most electric prospect. 

Cishek signing: B

I'm a fan of this move in every way.  Cishek was a work horse for the Cubs the last 2 years.  Unfortunately he got stung in the second half last year because Joe Maddon leans on guys TOO hard sometimes.  Cishek should help shorten the game and be a strong 7th inning guy.  He does a good job at inducing soft contact which is why he outperforms FIP nearly every year.  Not a big strikeout guy but hopefully will be very effective with a more "reduced role" with us.  I would have given this an A if he was a secondary piece to a more high leverage arm. 

 

Overall: B to B-

I think the FO deserves a lot of credit for how this offseason turned out and some of the money was actually spent.  I think the Robert extension and locking up Grandal were the 2 most important things they did.  Unfortunately Keuchel doesn't move the needle too much either way I don't think, the Abreu extension is highly questionable from a roster construction standpoint going forward, and Mazara could be another waste in RF and was not really an actual upgrade vs the league.  I think the secondary moves with EE, Cishek, Gio will prove to be pretty impactful this year.  I'd love to be more optimistic but for THIS year I don't think they did enough to surpass the Twins, which means we likely won't be a WC with the A's and Rays just being better teams right now.  I do think we will be playing meaningful baseball in August and September though for the first time in a long time which will at least keep us relevant.  Nice job Rick and Kenny.  Exciting times for Sox fans.

Abreu extension: A

I love Jose. To haters, at least i didn't give him A plus.

Grandal signing: B

Why not? I got nothing against the guy. No reason to keep McCann though. Get rid of him now for a reliever.

Mazara trade: C or B-

We need him, so why not? Obviously I'd prefer Avi but hey I don't get my way. Maybe he'll be this team's Jermaine Dye.

Keuchel signing: B

I have no idea. It's not my money but obviously it's risky signing pitchers cause, well, they get hurt or suddenly stink. Whatever ... I hope for the best as I want a pennant.

Gio G signing: F

Remember I said this. He's finished.   

EE signing: A

I don't mind his age. I want some more bombs and he can hit them.  

Luis Robert extension: B

I'm OK with the extension; now please be a star, Luis.

Cishek signing: B

We need relievers. I'm Ok with this acquisition.

Overall: C

Front office is trying. I'm OK with Hahn. I'd be OK with a B- but let's see what happens. I'm skeptical we can top .500 with RR and an aging Coop.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2020 at 6:53 PM, BackDoorBreach said:

Assuming the Sox are done with major off-season aquisitions I'd like to see grades for each individual move.

Abreu extension: D

This was just a bad extension and didn't make any sense.  I like Jose but we had him on our terms and we were in the drivers seat.  We decided to go OVER market value for a position that doesn't generate that kind of money.

 

Grandal signing: A

Top 5 catcher in the game. Hard not to love this move as he will help our young hitters as they try to hopefully become more patient and will obviously have an impact on our young staff.

Mazara trade: C+/B-

I like this move as a buy-low and see what the hell can happen.  He has tons of potential but has obviously been extremely stagnant.  We gave up an OF from our deal OF crop. He made some serious adjustments to his approach in the second half last year, I suggest you check it out.

Keuchel signing: C

Keuchel is a fine pitcher but as our TOP SP signing I can't give this above a C. His option is a good one as it may be tough for it to vest.

Gio G signing: B

This is a good signing though I would have prefered someone with more upside (Walker, Wood).

EE signing: A

How this isn't an A idk.  Dude can still rake and we got him for 1 year for 12 million.. And isn't there an option just in case he rakes again and Vaughn stalls?  Great move and contract.. This is what should've been done with Abreu.  1 year 12 million deals until he can't provide that.

Luis Robert extension: A++++

This completely made the offseason. I don't need to harp more on this.

Cishek signing: B+

Top 5 RP available and came at a relatively cheap price of 6 million WITH another option.. GREAT move.

 

Overall: B to B+

The Robert signing and the offensive moves really salvaged this.  I cannot however, give this an A with Keuchel being our big SP fish.  I think our offsense will be outstanding and top 5 in the league.  Great offensive offseason. And none of these contracts should really hamper any future moves (except Abreu).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abreu extension: D

This was just a bad extension and didn't make any sense.  I like Jose but we had him on our terms and we were in the drivers seat.  We decided to go OVER market value for a position that doesn't generate that kind of money.

 

Grandal signing: A

Top 5 catcher in the game. Hard not to love this move as he will help our young hitters as they try to hopefully become more patient and will obviously have an impact on our young staff.

Mazara trade: C+/B-

I like this move as a buy-low and see what the hell can happen.  He has tons of potential but has obviously been extremely stagnant.  We gave up an OF from our deal OF crop. He made some serious adjustments to his approach in the second half last year, I suggest you check it out.

Keuchel signing: C

Keuchel is a fine pitcher but as our TOP SP signing I can't give this above a C. His option is a good one as it may be tough for it to vest.

Gio G signing: B

This is a good signing though I would have prefered someone with more upside (Walker, Wood).

EE signing: A

How this isn't an A idk.  Dude can still rake and we got him for 1 year for 12 million.. And isn't there an option just in case he rakes again and Vaughn stalls?  Great move and contract.. This is what should've been done with Abreu.  1 year 12 million deals until he can't provide that.

Luis Robert extension: A++++

This completely made the offseason. I don't need to harp more on this.

Cishek signing: B+

Top 5 RP available and came at a relatively cheap price of 6 million WITH another option.. GREAT move.

 

Overall: B to B+

The Robert signing and the offensive moves really salvaged this.  I cannot however, give this an A with Keuchel being our big SP fish.  I think our offsense will be outstanding and top 5 in the league.  Great offensive offseason. And none of these contracts should really hamper any future moves (except Abreu).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that Dylan Covey went from being on the 25 man roster and was counted on to contribute last season to no longer being on our 40 man roster speaks volumes about how this offseason has gone.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, MeanJoeCrede said:

The fact that Dylan Covey went from being on the 25 man roster and was counted on to contribute last season to no longer being on our 40 man roster speaks volumes about how this offseason has gone.

The Sox have basically trimmed ALLLLLLLLL of the 40 man fat and filler in a matter of 3 months.  Its truly impressive.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the Sox do not trade McCann, Collins, should not be on the 26 man roster for a couple of reasons.  Look at it with Collins interests rather than the interests of the White Sox to keep him as a prospect or a seldom used back-up catcher treading on thin ice on a contending team.

Collins agent and the White Sox would better serve  Collins aspirations to become a starting catcher in the majors by seeking a trade with a team where he is not blocked by a catcher like Grandal making 17 Million a year over the next 4 years.  If the Sox trade McCann and rely on Collins to start 40 games, that might not turn (out) as well as the Collins fans here might think it will.  Or they will pine that playing in 40 games in 2020 was a small sample size and therefore, he should be allowed to start half the games or more in 2021 before the Sox give up on him. 

The guy is 25 years old in February and has no shot to start with the White Sox for several years.  Signing Grandal should have made it clear that the Sox have no confidence (in Collins) as a a starting catcher.   Trade the poor guy and let him have a decent shot somewhere else.

 

Edited by tray
corrected

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, tray said:

If the Sox do not trade McCann, Collins, should not be on the 26 man roster for a couple of reasons.  Look at it with Collins interests rather than the interests of the White Sox to keep him as a prospect or a seldom used back-up catcher treading on thin ice on a contending team.

Collins agent and the White Sox would better serve  Collins aspirations to become a starting catcher in the majors by seeking a trade with a team where he is not blocked by a catcher like Grandal making 17 Million a year over the next 4 years.  If the Sox trade McCann and rely on Collins to start 40 games, that might not turn (out) as well as the Collins fans here might think it will.  Or they will pine that playing in 40 games in 2020 was a small sample size and therefore, he should be allowed to start half the games or more in 2021 before the Sox give up on him. 

The guy is 25 years old in February and has no shot to start with the White Sox for several years.  Signing Grandal should have made it clear that the Sox have no confidence (in Collins) as a a starting catcher.   Trade the poor guy and let him have a decent shot somewhere else.

 

Okay so who is our backup catcher in 2021?  Collins has 5 or 6 years of control left and while may never be a great receiver, could turn in to an above average bat.  That's not nothing.  Especially at a position that regularly employs automatic outs like Jeff Mathis and the dude from the Padres.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, please consider this from Collins perspective.  Becoming a maybe part time catcher or 1B or DH may not be what Collins wants at this point in his career.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, tray said:

Again, please consider this from Collins perspective.  Becoming a maybe part time catcher or 1B or DH may not be what Collins wants at this point in his career.

Then he should try to improve.  And to be frank, Collins is not owed anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×